All Blacks Tri-nations squad 2011

[ranger]

Wait, Larksea, are you saying that if it wasn't for the fact that Kahui has had constant shoulder injuries (read; injury prone), then he wouldnt be considered injury prone?

If Matt Dunning wasn't carrying so much fat on his body, then he wouldn't be considered fat.

If Donald was a much better playmaker and decision maker, then he wouldn't be considered such a poor playmaker and decision maker.

Logic win.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

BOD, Mortlock and Umaga at their best were a class apart. I'd rate Fourie and Smith in the same league though. Along with Nonu, Jauzion, Giteau (last two a few years back mind), AAC and maybe Contepomi.

 

[alex]

Wait, Larksea, are you saying that if it wasn't for the fact that Kahui has had constant shoulder injuries (read; injury prone), then he wouldnt be considered injury prone?

If Matt Dunning wasn't carrying so much fat on his body, then he wouldn't be considered fat.

If Donald was a much better playmaker and decision maker, then he wouldn't be considered such a poor playmaker and decision maker.

Logic win.

If you weren't such a smartarse, you wouldn't be considered such a smartarse. Haha, I +repped ya.

 

[Darwin]

Thanks, and I agree Conrad's size isn't as much of an issue now as it was in 2007-2008. He has got a bit bigger and at the same time there is not the same threat with mortlock out of the picture. SA have big mid fielders but they dont get the ball much

It may seem silly to pick a player just to deal with one oposition but the reality is that there are very few teams out there that are a threat to the AB's australia and SA mainly. And against Australia by far their biggest threat was Mortlock.

I think you have miss quoted me though. Or I didn't get my meaning accross. I think I said if it wasn't for Kahui's sholder injuries he wouldn't be considered injury prone. Problem is Kahui has had 3 major sholder injuries which have taken him out of large chunks or rugby each time. And I link his sholder injuries directly to the fact he hits tackles harder and more often than pretty much any back in rugby, even guys who are a lot bigger than him.

He knows that if he eases back on his defence he wont have the same injury problems but he chooses to ignore that idea, maybe to his credit - people may say he's stupid not to.

he really hasn't had many injury problems outside his sholder issues. he had an ancle and a few other minor issues.

The good thing is that since he had his first sholder one I dont think that has been a problem since and his other sholder the 2nd injury wasn't the same so that's kinda a good sign for his other sholder re-construction.

I also believe he's been really badly managed as far as his injuries go.

he had an ancle injury mis diagnosed which put him out for a long peroid which if he had been managed properly would have been monir. He also played most of the 2009(?) super rugby season with a busted sholder (only able to tackle one one side, wouldn't have done his good side any good either.) and the injury eventually got so bad it rulled him out for the all blacks. When it should have been sorted right away, he should have taken time off during super rugby to get it fixed he may have been good for the end of the season and all blacks.

Interestingly during that time some other chiefs players were badly managed with injuries as well. Sivivatu was the worst, seemed to have his sholder dislocated every few weeks and rather than get it fixed he played on for the chiefs and it just got worse and worse till surgery forced him out and he missed an international season and hasn't made it back to the AB's yet.

And that wasn't long after Leonard had his knee problem. Leonard busted his Knee, had surgery, was in a moon boot for months. Then they remove his moon boot only to find the surgery was no good and he had to have more surgery and start the whole process again from scratch. I can't imagine how hard that must have been.

I also wouldn't put mony on Kahui not getting injured, though so for this year his sholders havn't been an issue, one neck strain and a monor hammy injury this season so far - most players would be happy with only that. But history is against him.

I do hope he stays injury free. I believe the All Blacks are better off with him in the picture, he just naturally seems good at test rugby. He's even better suited to test rugby than super rugby. And he has a rare ability to lift his game to a high level/intensity when needed. There are a few players around like that and they will be critical come playoffs time.

And heh yeah Giteau isn't huge, but the guy is a walking muscle. for his size and weight he has a ridiculous amount of power. One can only imagine how good some NZ players would be if they worked as hard on their fitness as matt giteau does. Ranger, Masanga, Stowers come to mind. Aussie have a few players like matt giteau that I envy in that regard.

Your point may be valid, if it wasn't for the fact that he during this years Super Rugby season Kahui made less tackles/80 mins (6.0) than any other New Zealand midfield back apart from Robbie Fruean*. Indeed he only made just over half as many as Conrad Smith (10.1). I know that you will undoubtably have an explanation for this (e.g. the statisticians don't actually count all his tackles, as they are jealous of his charming good looks ). I rate Richard Kahui quite highly, but (despite coming from Chiefs country) he is not in the same class as Conrad Smith.


*stats courtesy of www.ruggastats.com

 

[Larksea]

Ohh c'mon guys, I never said Conrad Smith was a bad player. He's a very good player and yes at times over the last 2 or so years he's been the best 13 in the world.

All I'm suggesting is that he's not perfect (Shock horror! Blasphemy!)

Like kahui Smiths early carrier was thwarted by injury, he was also pretty average at times. He made his debut in 2005 and only established himself in 2008. He's been very good ever since but does have weaknesses like any player. IMO he doesn't realy have a kicking game and he's not as good defending powerful/bigger runners, what i observe is that he makes a big effort to meet them when they get the ball which works sometimes but is risky and it hs burned him a number of times. He's also not really an "x-factor player" he will give a good honest 80min but he hardly ever (note hardly ever doesn't mean never) comes up with a big play or brilliant individual effort to turn a match or change the mommentum of a game.

Strengths

he's a very "safe" player. Really good fittness as far as Cardio goes. he doesn't slow down over 80min and is often more of a threat in the last 20min as opositions start to tire. His positioning on defence is very good and so often seems to be in the right place. He doesn't dominate or hit hard on defence but most of the time he has good technique and is once of the safest guys around. His overall error rate is low and he's a great link man. He's not express fast but he has enough to suprise defences if he gets a head start. And most importantly I think overall attributes have provided a really good balance in mid field with Ma'a Nonu.

On these forums people seem to put players into little boxes. They're either great, average and people often pen players as "not suitable for test level" or "injury prone" similar and others get pinned as "best in the world" or "World class" and suddenly no one is able to fault them without getting shot down they become untouchable. Which is all bullshit. Players have strengths and weaknesses, good games and bad games and they also have the capacity to improve and evolve. McCaw was man of the match in his first ever test, but most of the time it's not like that. Look at Nonu, Conrad Smith, Jerome kaino - all pretty average at the start of their all black carriers - some even got labeled as "not fit for international level" by some but look at them now. It may have taken then multiple chances over and 15-20 or more tests to establish themselves over a period of years. And the worst thing is it's ok for some players to be average or struggle at times and not others - people have double standards.

I find it impossible to sum up a player in 3-4 words or just say bob is better than jim. And I'll often take a players potential into account when judging them.