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All Blacks vs Wallabies, August 7th 2010, Fifth Tri Nations Test

Yeah I agree Im sure Tony is a great guy and in that situation where the opposition (Faingaa) is on the wrong side I too wouldve done something but not what Woodcock did. It was dangerous IMO especially when you see Faingaa's head snap back, I feel it was an impulse thing from Tony hopefully Faingaa wasnt injured by it.
 
I recorded the game and planned it or tomorrow. I do know the AB's won, but the score wasn't that high.
 
like i say what if bakkes had done it

Here you go then. Here's Bakkies "doing it"

[video=youtube;NJBKpcM9l7M&start=2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJBKpcM9l7M&start=2[/video]

Not only did be not get a yellow card, and not cited, he was not even penalised for this vicious and premeditated act of cowardice.

You cannot compare Woodcock with Bakkies Botha. Botha had a long and well earned reputation as a serial thug.

I might add that Mortlock had be replaced (concussion) and missed the next two Tri-Nations matches. This was a LOT worse than what Woodcock did to Fa'ainga, and with worse consequences for the victim. Botha got off scott free!!!
 
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i remember this clearly when it happened,and everybody rightly called botha a thug, but you cant blame the ref missing that,i wud say there is less intention in bothas one aswell,i dont think he intentionally went for mortlocks head there,it also looks worse in slow mo i would like to see it in real time when it looks more accidental, in some ways trying to compare woodcocks one and that one is quite poor and desperate
 
i remember this clearly when it happened,and everybody rightly called botha a thug, but you cant blame the ref missing that,i wud say there is less intention in bothas one aswell,i dont think he intentionally went for mortlocks head there,it also looks worse in slow mo i would like to see it in real time when it looks more accidental, in some ways trying to compare woodcocks one and that one is quite poor and desperate

Well I am not comparing Woodcock with Botha... you are

like i say what if bakkes had done it

You are inferring that if Bakkies had done that he might have been binned & cited, but as I have clearly shown, there have been times when he has got away with things too!

Also, I don't buy that Bakkies was accidental. He led with his shoulder, with his arm down by his side. Very dangerous whether he was heading for Mortlock's head or not. If he had hit Mortlock in the shoulder instead, then it is likely to have dislocated it... exactly what he did to Adam Jones on the Lions tour.


I am not making excuses for Woodcock, he deserved a yellow card, and he ought to have been cited, and I cannot understand why he wasn't.
 
Nubiwan

I have a couple if issues with what you have said here

Firstly, it didn't start that way. Referees have been instructed to slow the CPTE sequence down with a longer pause if teams have trouble getting the engage timing right.

Secondly, the hand on the player's shoulder is Kaplan's style and its a management technique. AIUI he does that to have the player realise it is him he is watching. At this level, the players and referee know each other well and the players will be familiar with it. Christophe Berdos (France) is another referee you some times see using the hand on shoulder technique.

I refuse to accept assertions of bias (i.e. the deliberate and calculated favouring of one team over another) at this level of refereeing.

Yes I agree Woodcock should have been yellow carded, but I can also understand why he might not have been.

Firstly, referees MUST look at every offence on it own merits. They are not to decide on a sanction based on what may or may not have happened in another match. It is the job of the Judiciary to decide the relative values of punishments by precedent and prior disciplinary record.

As I posted earlier (you obviously haven't read through this topic before posting), there are a couple of reasons why he might not have been carded.



All I can advise you here is to stop listening to the BS spouted by TV commentators about "downward pressure". The requirement for downward pressure on the ball was removed from that part of the Laws of the Game in the early 1970's. The only requirement to "press down" on the ball is if it is already in the in-goal (say from a kick ahead) and player wishes to ground it.

LAW 22.1 GROUNDING THE BALL
There are two ways a player can ground the ball:
(a) Player touches the ground with the ball. A player grounds the ball by holding the ball and touching the ground with it, in in-goal. ‘Holding’ means holding in the hand or hands, or in the arm or arms. No downward pressure is required.

(b) Player presses down on the ball. A player grounds the ball when it is on the ground in the in-goal and the player presses down on it with a hand or hands, arm or arms, or the front of the player’s body from waist to neck inclusive.

It never ceases to amaze me the number of top international and ex-international players (Justin Marshall, Phil Kearns) who still believe that a player carrying the ball has to put downward pressure on the ball to score a try. If you still believe that, well all I can say is that you are in good company.

Now to Conrad Smith's try, and it was a try. For Smith to have lost control of the ball, the ball would have to be separated from his hand(s) and touched the ground BEFORE he got his hands back on it, but that is not what happened. His hand was on the side of the ball when he touched the ball in the in-goal. That is a try, and that is why the TMO only took two looks and a couple of seconds to award it.

Take a look at this Rocky Elsom try from the 2006 Tri-Nations.

[video=youtube;DE7FvrKac10&start=108]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DE7FvrKac10&start=108[/video]

Many kiwis at the time said that the TMO got this wrong, but I disagreed because I knew what the Law said, and I was sure that George Ayoub would award it.

All fair enough, but I still fancy Smith lost control - never mind this farcical still touching it with one hand thing you gpo on about. The fact it hit the ground was the deciding factor in his actually grounding it by eventually falling on it. I do wonder how many of these TMO's are watched at regular speed. I fancy Smith's try would look galringly knocked on at regular speed. It was my first reaction when he scored was that he bounced it in goal.

Having said all that, I only saw the replay a couple of times, so no point in the debate. I don't really care.

Again, the reason for my post is the the refereeing influence, or lack of in Woodcock's case, have had a decent impact in both games. Last weeks sending off was simply petty, and the ref should've known better despite apologising to the captain for it not bieng his 4kin problem, or some other nonsense. The players infringement had little impact on what was going to happen in the game at the time. The referees action consequently ended the competition.

Easy to see why people conspire to believe its just a case of a ref showing off his nads to the NZ board and show how 'fair' he is going to be for the next world cup, in NZ?
 
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The offside players were managed and stopped! AT this level players know that the referee will manage those types of things rather than blow the pea out of his whistle. As soon as he yelled "NO" the kicker knows he is protected from offside players charging down his kick.

Any anyway, HOW DARE YOU insult my intelligence by accusing me of being a member of the NANCY BOYS BRIGADE!!!

IMO, the only "real" rugby players have single digits on their backs.... the lower the number the better!!!

From that outburst, you will realise that your first guess was correct. I was a "Lucy"!!!

LOL !! Hopefully, I am safe having worn the number 9 most of the time.

I think the ABS are pretty decent at interfering with this last foot of the breakdown lark. Again, I was more making a point rather than describe what happened in the specific video clip. If a fella feels pressure from the outside, he runs towards touch. If them fellas are offside a bit, or have been allowed to be offside a fair bit by the ref, then you leg it to the touch every time and hope you get a way a decent kick. No matter what level, you expect offside at the breakdown to be 'managed' by the ref.
 
Again, the reason for my post is the the refereeing influence, or lack of in Woodcock's case, have had a decent impact in both games. Last weeks sending off was simply petty, and the ref should've known better despite apologising to the captain for it not bieng his 4kin problem, or some other nonsense. The players infringement had little impact on what was going to happen in the game at the time. The referees action consequently ended the competition.

Easy to see why people conspire to believe its just a case of a ref showing off his nads to the NZ board and show how 'fair' he is going to be for the next world cup, in NZ?

You might have a point, if "showing off his nads to the NZ board" had any effect on the appointment of referees for the RWC.

Thankfully, they are not appointed that way. The RWC referee appointments are carried out by the IRB Referee selection panel. They are Steve Hilditch (Ireland - Head Selector), Tappe Henning (South Africa), Michael Lamoullie (France), Bob Francis (New Zealand)

The make their selections based on the reports from assessors (now called match observers). Referees are appointed to the Elite panel "objectively" by their assessment scores, not "subjectively" by opinions.

The IRB Assesment Panel are - Ed Morrisson (England), Scott Young (Australia), Patrick Robin (France), Andrew Cole (Australia), , Paul Bridgman (England), Brian Stirling (Ireland) and Tony Spreadbury (England),

And for those who think that Paddy OBrien is involved, I'll head you off at the pass right now. O'Brien does NOT assess referees, nor does he select them to the Elite Panel, he is simply their Manager and appoints them to matches once they're on it.
 
as funny as it is seeing all these complaints and conspiracy theories blown out of the water, its also very annoying and quite pathetic. gtf over it
 
as funny as it is seeing all these complaints and conspiracy theories blown out of the water, its also very annoying and quite pathetic. gtf over it

Calm down matey.

With some of the responses, perhaps you have a point. For me, I am not suggesting any conspiracy, just that refereeing decisions have had an impact on 3N games and effectively ended this year's tri nations competition. I find that sad as I live to awtch teams competing for something worthwhile.

By no means a fan of the Ozzies, I simply feel they've been hard done by. Not so much that as the refeeeing has had an unecessary impact on outcomes.

In the end, the Ozzies could not score with the zillions of possession they had in the last test. You have to stick it in, as the lady said to the vicar. They are obviously one or two players short of giving the ABS a decent go.
 
You might have a point, if "showing off his nads to the NZ board" had any effect on the appointment of referees for the RWC.

Thankfully, they are not appointed that way. The RWC referee appointments are carried out by the IRB Referee selection panel. They are Steve Hilditch (Ireland - Head Selector), Tappe Henning (South Africa), Michael Lamoullie (France), Bob Francis (New Zealand)

The make their selections based on the reports from assessors (now called match observers). Referees are appointed to the Elite panel "objectively" by their assessment scores, not "subjectively" by opinions.

The IRB Assesment Panel are - Ed Morrisson (England), Scott Young (Australia), Patrick Robin (France), Andrew Cole (Australia), , Paul Bridgman (England), Brian Stirling (Ireland) and Tony Spreadbury (England),

And for those who think that Paddy OBrien is involved, I'll head you off at the pass right now. O'Brien does NOT assess referees, nor does he select them to the Elite Panel, he is simply their Manager and appoints them to matches once they're on it.

OK then - showing his nads off to the IRB panel. "Look lads, I'm not afraid to send a fella off in a 3N match for two farcical transgressions" - pick me please. Time to use common sense as refs and stop rugby becoming a game of football.
 
Theorizing about referee's conspiring to do anything except adjudicate play as best as they can is essentially a conspiracy theory is it not. I think a lot of the cards this year have been stupid and unnecessary but the reality is not a single outcome has yet been affected by it, hence my get over it call
 
OK then - showing his nads off to the IRB panel. "Look lads, I'm not afraid to send a fella off in a 3N match for two farcical transgressions" - pick me please. Time to use common sense as refs and stop rugby becoming a game of football.

Firstly, you didn't read what I said. Referees make the panel based on OBJECTIVE reporting, not SUBJECTVE reporting. Do you understand the difference?


Secondly, there is no way that an international referee will compromise his performance in order to impress an assessor. That is just rubbish. All they would succeed in doing is to lessen their chances of selection. If the cards they have issued are as dubious and as unwarranted as you are suggesting, then they will have a lot of difficulty justifying the issuing of those cards to their assessors.
 
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Cooky, if referees are judged objectively and not subjectively is there a criteria to which performances are rated and judged astute or not? I.e. does the IRB establish an ideal amount of penalties/yellow cards/possession that they would like to see, and the referees that produce these statistics are elected to the world cup jobs by the Panel?
 
Cooky, if referees are judged objectively and not subjectively is there a criteria to which performances are rated and judged astute or not? I.e. does the IRB establish an ideal amount of penalties/yellow cards/possession that they would like to see, and the referees that produce these statistics are elected to the world cup jobs by the Panel?

While there is no quota for the number of penalties referee are expected to issue, it is recognised that, on average, teams in a match would normally incur between 8 and 12 infringements in a match. If a referee's penalty count is extraordinarily high or low overall, or very one sided, a review of the match would be carried out to see if it is justified This can be hard to do at grass roots where there might not be video available. Referees are judged on a number of criteria, most of which includes aspects of game management such as positioning, use of voice, whistle tone, interaction with the captain and the players and a number of other things which are tedious and I won't bore you with. They are also assessed on the numbers and types of errors they commit. There are three type of errors, some more important that others;

1. Errors of judgement.
This would be a situation or scenario that was handled "correctly" in accordance with the Laws, but could have been handled better, e.g. two players exchange punches in an otherwise clean match, and the referee bins both of them. This would be correct in Law, and perhaps good judgement in a match where there had been a lot of ****le, but in an otherwise clean match that had seen no trouble up to that point, the referee would be expected to manage such a situation better with warnings, perhaps a word to the captains and perhaps a penalty. Errors of judgement are the least serious, as they can often be down to personal style. Referee must be prepared to justify their judgement.

2. Errors in Law
This is where a referee literally makes an incorrect call that is not in accordance with the Laws of the game. Examples would be awarding a penalty kick against a player when the the sanction for the Law they infringed only prescribes a free kick, or failing to bring the mark for a penalty infringement such as a late charge where the ball ends up in touch, to the correct place, in this case, 15m in from the touchline at the line-of-touch. Errors in law are more serious, and it is not a good idea to make too many of these.

3. Critical errors
These are errors in Law or gross errors in judgement, that the assessor considers either had the potential to affect the result of the game, or actually did so. An example would be awarding a penalty kick in the wrong place for a late charge (i.e. at the place where the late charge occurred instead of where the ball landed) if the difference between them was the difference between the team being able to kick a penalty goal that would have won them the game. A well known example of a critical error in recent times was Paul Marks' failure to use the TMO when Conrad Smith was tackled without the ball in the final seconds of the Hurricanes v Sharks match in 2008. The was a critical error that prevented a possible draw for the Hurricanes. Critical errors are the ones that make or break a referee. These stay on your record as a ref, and too many will prevent you from getting promoted.

There are limits for the number of errors made (although I don't know what they are for international referees) but there are no quotas for cards issued. I promise you that giving out red cards involves a SHITLOAD of paperwork after the match, and no referee I have ever met enjoys doing it.
 
3. Critical errors
These are errors in Law or gross errors in judgement, that the assessor considers either had the potential to affect the result of the game, or actually did so. An example would be awarding a penalty kick in the wrong place for a late charge (i.e. at the place where the late charge occurred instead of where the ball landed) if the difference between them was the difference between the team being able to kick a penalty goal that would have won them the game. A well known example of a critical error in recent times was Paul Marks' failure to use the TMO when Conrad Smith was tackled without the ball in the final seconds of the Hurricanes v Sharks match in 2008. The was a critical error that prevented a possible draw for the Hurricanes. Critical errors are the ones that make or break a referee. These stay on your record as a ref, and too many will prevent you from getting promoted.

There are limits for the number of errors made (although I don't know what they are for international referees) but there are no quotas for cards issued. I promise you that giving out red cards involves a SHITLOAD of paperwork after the match, and no referee I have ever met enjoys doing it.

Ugh, I still hate Paul Marks over that -



I think you've really put an end to the accusations of corruption in referees. It's a pitty most of the people who are making the accusations won't take the time to read it...
 
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Ugh, I still hate Paul Marks over that -


I think you've really put an end to the accusations of corruption in referees. It's a pitty most of the people who are making the accusations won't take the time to read it...

nick

There are those (and plenty on this and other forums too) who will always believe that this referee or that referee are biased.

It doesn't matter what evidence you show them to the contrary, they will never believe otherwise, because without that belief, they cannot nurse their small minded grievances, and create their preposterous conspiracy theories.
 
What's with all the whining? I thought I made a thread about that.

Seriously, your teams lost (AU, SA) it's a loss, accept the fact that they got outplayed. End of.

I'm going insane from all the nonsensical BS from the lot of Ocker, jappie fans.
 
Ugh, I still hate Paul Marks over that
I think you've really put an end to the accusations of corruption in referees. It's a pitty most of the people who are making the accusations won't take the time to read it...

I remember that decision..clearly the Shark no.12 tackled Smith without the ball (early tackle) and once more I think Waldrom got that ball down for the try. After the match So'oialo (Hurricanes capt.) said the reff had a good game and didnt even go into why Paul Marks didnt send it to the TMO.
 

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