Argentina

[The TRUTH]

Problem with the Tri Nations and Argentina is the fact that the Argentine players will be in European clubs at the time.
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What he said

 

[O'Rothlain]

Poor England, eh? I'm trying to finish this match before I leave for work this morning (woke up early for it). Argentian would burry all of the Americas. The USA don't have the depth of experience that they do. We only have a few players that play internationally and by internationally I mean proffessionally. Canada are getting better, but still nowhere close to the Pumas.

 

[Prestwick]

Again, we're thinking short term here. Argentina in the an expanded Seven Nations probabbly wouldn't get the 'home' supporters that it would have expected. If they play in Spain, I'd expect pretty empty stadiums filled mostly with away fans wanting a quick fling in the sun, sea and sand of Barcelona and Catalonia.

It would kick start rugby in Spain, but then you have to ask yourselves, if say rugby in Spain gets such a jolt that the Spanish rugby team comes on in leaps and bounds within the decade...and then they themselves want to join the Seven Nations...where would that leave Argentina? Would they have to move elsewhere in Europe?

At the same time they wouldn't really be able to move to a Southern Hemisphere or Pan American competition easily as they could right now because even more of their players would be residing at European clubs.

You see, Argenina joining the Six nations, while it makes sense in the short term for the next four years or so, just dosen't make sense for the long term for the next 10 to 15 years.

It would be better for SANZAR to accept the pain of having Argentina, having the tri nations in one country only each year on a rotating basis, and using the television revenue in Argentina to fund and encourage professional Argentinian clubs to tempt back their stars from the north.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

I'm really not a major fan of the idea a lot of people here have been putting forward of the idea that Fiji, Samoa, and Tonga should play regularly as just one nation at the expense of them playing separately. I like the idea of them doing a Lions-esque tour, but honestly, they should compete separately because come world cup time if they haven't been, then they're going to get stuffed in the pools.
[/b]

Perhaps the players who aren't selected for the Pacific Islands could still play for Fiji, Samoa, Tonga in a series with Japan. Japan aren't at the level of the Pacific Island nations so it would be a fairly even standard of competition.

Ideally, I'd favor an expanded Tri Nations with the Pacific Islands composite team involved. Argentina enter a new American 4 Nations with Uruguay, USA and Canada. Since this would be a step down for Argentina, they might accept it if they are guaranteed 3 or 4 home matches per season against the so-called big 8 countries.

 

[Prestwick]

Yes but they would get a fraction of the money than they would get in a European 7 Nations or a Southern Hemisphere 4 nations. Even with the increased amount of test match rugby in Argentina, it still wouldn't equal the lucrative television revenue that such a high prestige tournament would bring.

While a Argentina, USA and Canada Super 14 club league is a must, a 4 nations between them and Uruguay would be a step back and lock Argentina out of the very funds which could save rugby in Argentina itself.

 

[Mr. Laxative]

Yes maybe, but recently I saw something about a 4 team comp, from Canada and USA. These from memory are Canada East, Canada West, America E, America W. Why can't Argentina join this???

 

[shtove]

Yes maybe, but recently I saw something about a 4 team comp, from Canada and USA. These from memory are Canada East, Canada West, America E, America W. Why can't Argentina join this???
[/b]

Yeah, former England SH Nigel Melville has a column in the Sunday Times - he's been made head of an organisation based in north America, and hopes to have Canada, Argentina and USA playing a tournament in Florida. I'd say the fact most Puma players are based in Europe makes the 6N their best option, but then rugby really ought to be expanding all over the place. Melville has a dream that all the failed gridiron hopefuls will funnel into rugby - so long as they leave their steroids at the door.

 

[SaintsFan_Webby]

Yes maybe, but recently I saw something about a 4 team comp, from Canada and USA. These from memory are Canada East, Canada West, America E, America W. Why can't Argentina join this???
[/b]

Argentina would destroy all the teams in that competition. How would that help them develop.

Plus there is the issue being mentioned of most of their players playing in Europe.

 

[O'Rothlain]

<div class='quotemain'>
Yes maybe, but recently I saw something about a 4 team comp, from Canada and USA. These from memory are Canada East, Canada West, America E, America W. Why can't Argentina join this???
[/b]

Argentina would destroy all the teams in that competition. How would that help them develop.

Plus there is the issue being mentioned of most of their players playing in Europe.
[/b][/quote]
Let their Elite players stay in Europe, and the ones below that skill level compete in an expanded NA4 competition.
http://www.narugby.com
That wouldn't hurt anyone. It could only strengthen the Americas. The elite of Argentina are already getting exccellent training in Eruope...just look at their victories over the French and the English and their draw with the Lions. Help them develop more depth locally, and strengthen the rugby in Canada and the US.

 

[Prestwick]

<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
Yes maybe, but recently I saw something about a 4 team comp, from Canada and USA. These from memory are Canada East, Canada West, America E, America W. Why can't Argentina join this???
[/b]

Argentina would destroy all the teams in that competition. How would that help them develop.

Plus there is the issue being mentioned of most of their players playing in Europe.
[/b][/quote]
Let their Elite players stay in Europe, and the ones below that skill level compete in an expanded NA4 competition.
http://www.narugby.com
That wouldn't hurt anyone. It could only strengthen the Americas. The elite of Argentina are already getting exccellent training in Eruope...just look at their victories over the French and the English and their draw with the Lions. Help them develop more depth locally, and strengthen the rugby in Canada and the US.
[/b][/quote]

For the record, Rugby Canada, USA Rugby and the Argentine RFU are hoping to create a 3 nation Super 14 style league.

The problem with keeping the Argentine players in the UK and Europe, or anywhere else is for that matter, is that it is quite a short sighted policy. As we are seeing with Italy, drawing players away from their home nation does little to raise the profile of rugby in the actual nation itself. Essentially the Italian Super 10 teams are being asset stripped of their best players by the bigger and more powerful English, French and Irish teams and it has hurt the game in Italy bad.

Argentina are in an even worse position. Unlike Italy, the Argentine RFU is broke and officially bankrupt. Unlike Italy, Argentina is still in a state of semi-amateurism and unlike Italy, there is no incentive to invest and train the stars of tomorrow. Why should they? They'll just get cherry picked by the British and European clubs and leave Argentina will no return on their investment.

People tend to forget that the foundation of an excellent international side is only as strong as the health of the game at home. If the game at home is bankrupt with little or no grass roots development with teams outside of your country having to train your players, then that it no way to form and support an international team.

Argentina are in that seriously troubling position right now. They don't have the financial or development backing that other emerging Rugby nations like Rugby Canada or the Japanese RFU have and neither do they have the star players or the investment at home to increase the game's visibility to the Argentine sporting public.

Argentina need two things. Firstly they need to get into an International competition other than the world cup rather than be fobbed off with some bogus "Americas Cup" rubbish. Secondly they need to form a fully professional and well organised club competition (either on their own or with the yanks and the canucks) which will give both the Argentine public a reason to invest in rugby at home and the players a reason to stay at home.

Argentina only have 4-8 years to get this right. There is little or no sign of a new generation of Argentina players traveling North who can replace the current crop. Most likely the form of the current Argentine squad will die as soon as the existing players start retiring, Argentina will shrivel from view, SANZAR will say "I told you so" and the same existing big 8 will continue to jealously guard the game (and it's slowly diminishing returns) for themselves.

In effect gentlemen, we run the risk of seeing the game gradually dying in Argentina if we continue on our present course.

And we as the rugby going public will suffer all the more for it.

 

[Mr. Laxative]

There's been talk that SA are going to pull in out of the SANZAR agreement, post 2010 and try and get some of there teams in the European Cup. For them, this would mean less travel time which is better for players with more matches being played each year. I'm not sure what would happen to SA international rugby though. That could be interesting. Would they join in the 6 Nations? An African Cup?

To be honest, yeah. Japan in a Pacific Four Nations wouldn't be such a good idea, but certainly have some of their teams in Super Rugby. Maybe what could happen four the Tri/Four Nations is a tiered competition like in Europe. Have 1 tournament with say Australia, New Zealand, PI. And then another with the lesser teams: Japan, Hong Kong, Korea, and the PI as seperate teams.

Argentina could join in the SH tournament, but to be honest, travel would be worse than if SA were still in. What should happen is the following: Argentina should join an expanded Six Nations (possibly with SA as well) playing their home matches in Europe, where all their best players are playing. Only those playing with a European club comp should be allowed to play in the European Argentine team.

Next they need to sort a grassroots program - maybe a slight problem considering that Argentina Rugby is officially bankrupt. This is where an American club comp comes into play, including teams from Canada, USA, Uruguay, Argentine and Chile. This should be followed by an expanded NA4 comp, including the nations listed above. Only the players playing in the Americas should be allowed to play in this Argentine team - for now.

Eventually as the competition grows, the Argentines playing in Europe will return and American rugby will become more successful. Finally there would be a great team and tournament.

Basically, there would be two Argentina national teams playing in seperate parts of the world with a different coach each. Come World Cup time, these teams would theoretically combine and have two coaches.

Now all Argentina needs is a heap of funding from the IRB and soon enough we may see them in the Top 3!!