British and Irish Lions v Argentina

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

does anyone else feel Itoje and Bernie as a combo won't work?

 

[Ddanno]

 

[ChicagoKid]

I back that completely and have been saying that England's best 10 is F Smith for nearly two years.

M Smith has achieved nothing as a 10 at international level. He doesn't control territory or possession as well as F Smith, Mackenzie, Prendergast, Pollard or Albornez. He doesn't have the passing range of Russell, N'tamack, Jalibert, F Smith, Prendergast, Albornez or Lolesio. He's not as good a tactical kicker as Prendergast, Mackenzie, Pollard, F Smith or Russell. That's at least 5 players in each area off the top of my head in an era with no real standout 10s yet. You could probably fit SFM into a few of those too but I just haven't seen enough of him and it's ignoring Mo'unga who's out in Japan.

He can he pass a ball well, yes but he doesn't select the best pass at anywhere near the required frequency, same with kicking.

He's Jack Crowley with an elite running game and better mental game. Got on the tour by the skin of his teeth because Prendergast can't defend. There's no hiding this at international level like you can in a domestic league and as good as F Smith is, a 40 cap international with some of the elite skills M Smith has doesn't lose his place to a 22 year old still learning the level. England literally haven't lost since he's been replaced like and despite a year of close calls where fans repeatedly said it was other aspects of England's game, that change was the difference that started to get them over the line.

There's qualities that every top class 10 in the pro era has had that he's lacking in currently.

This is a far fairer assessment than almost anything that has been written about Prendergast by opposition fans on these boards tbh.

He has a summer to pick the brains of a coach who was playing at 38 to a level that currently looks out of reach for him to me, quite a good opportunity for him to avoid a "what might have been" type career. Currently he's a fine international 10, probably above average of the current crop but not due to the skills that 10s have built successful careers on.

100 percent agree. Spot on last two posts.

The single biggest problem — check my history, I've been saying it for 3 years — is that he is great athlete in the prem, but only a solid athlete at international level.

Obviously the international game is faster and there is limited space. And without elite pace or acceleration, he can't play his natural game.

When he is moved to fullback, there is more space, but that exposes his lack of defense. And at fullback, his athleticism is frankly sub-par at the international level.

Compare Marcus Smith to Damien Willemse, Blair Kinghorn, and Will Jordan. It's night and day. Fullback has some of the best athletes in the sport, and Marcus Smith.

He's a utility player. Barring a radical improvement in the nuts and bolts of 10, he's a jersey 22 or 23 at best on the international stage.

 

[ChicagoKid]

Im on board with this opinion, IMHO Smith is about as usefull as Sam Costelow at international level.

I feel for him at 15, but Argentina saw that back 3 and exploited it, as any coach in rugby would do. It was a rough day for Smith yesterday, but its not the first time he's looked like an u20s players stepping up to help out the 1st team. He's lost at FB, he's not quick enough, his positioning is poor, and its just not worth all that to utilise him as a 2nd playmaker because neither centre can distribute.

F Smith is easily England's best 10, he's not the complete package yet, but he has the potential, we know his namesake doesn't.

It was a decent hit out yesterday, some good stuff from Lions, albeit way too optimistic for the first game together, it looked exactly what it was, bunch of strangers vs a team.

Itojes taking a lot of flack but I don't think that's fair, Earl was very poor though. Tomos didnt half make a difference coming on, but his style lends itself to off the bench impact to be fair to Mitchell, I don't think he did too much wrong.

Not convinced by the centre partnership, or either wing TBH, but in that back 3 a world class player like VDM could struggle with the chaos that was caused.

Farrell will have learnt a lot, some of the stats were good, and the things that were big issues are easily fixable with time together.

Pollock makes it hard to like him lol, soft missed tackle for the try, and being rag dolled and turned over by a wing to lose the game is the kind of action noone wants to see on replay. He looked a little behind the pace of int rugby, but hell of a ceiling that boy has.

We all have to agree though, M Smith at 15 experiment has been a failure.

Bang on. Agree with every word. If I'm ever in wales, we gotta hang out. We can drink and nod in agreement until we pass out.

 

[dirty harry]

100 percent agree. Spot on last two posts.

The single biggest problem — check my history, I've been saying it for 3 years — is that he is great athlete in the prem, but only a solid athlete at international level.

Obviously the international game is faster and there is limited space. And without elite pace or acceleration, he can't play his natural game.

When he is moved to fullback, there is more space, but that exposes his lack of defense. And at fullback, his athleticism is frankly sub-par at the international level.

Compare Marcus Smith to Damien Willemse, Blair Kinghorn, and Will Jordan. It's night and day. Fullback has some of the best athletes in the sport, and Marcus Smith.

He's a utility player. Barring a radical improvement in the nuts and bolts of 10, he's a jersey 22 or 23 at best on the international stage.

He's a good clubman, and to give him credit he is a weapon, but he's too flawed for int rugby. I was stunned he was selected for the lions tour tbh, and i get it, I'm a power supremecist.

 

[Amiga500]

Whichever hooker was on the bench, I can't be expected to remember players names as soon as the final whistle ends
I'm too busy scrubbing my entire body with Dettol to get the stink of paying attention to a side with Duhan in

Jeyes Fluid probably a better bet.

Dettol is lightweight in comparison.

 

[McTallshort]

Bang on. Agree with every word. If I'm ever in wales, we gotta hang out. We can drink and nod in agreement until we pass out.

 

[Grizwald]

does anyone else feel Itoje and Bernie as a combo won't work?

They're a bit too similar IMO i.e. neither is a tight head lock. I think if the Aussies stay clear of injuries they can pick a handy pack with more heft with the likes of Skelton.

It's down to balance I reckon. You can play the two of them but not with a small back row like the Lions had yesterday, need a bigger body at 6 or 8.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Beirne will be at 6 for the test matches. Mark my words.

 

[dirty harry]

Bang on. Agree with every word. If I'm ever in wales, we gotta hang out. We can drink and nod in agreement until we pass out.

Only if Mctallshort joins and wears one of my MAGA hats...

 

[ChicagoKid]

Only if Mctallshort joins and wears one of my MAGA hats...

Make Arms Park Great Again?

 

[Grizwald]

Beirne will be at 6 for the test matches. Mark my words.

If the online stats are to be believed he's only started at 6, 4 times for Ireland which I found surprising. I think Chessum is a bit more mobile around the park. There isn't really a blind side on tour in the tall/athletic mould just a few locks who can do a serviceable job there.

 

[ChicagoKid]

If the online stats are to be believed he's only started at 6, 4 times for Ireland which I found surprising. I think Chessum is a bit more mobile around the park. There isn't really a blind side on tour in the tall/athletic mould just a few locks who can do a serviceable job there.

Beirne doesn't have the athleticism to play 6. Especially in those dry, fast Oz pitches, they need grunt & speed. Chessum feels like the right pick.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

If McCarthy can not be the biggest idiot in the world for a month I would back him and Itoje to get Curry and VdF both into the backrow to be honest. He's the only lock that allows that but he is.... flawed.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Adam Beard played for the lions.

 

[General Melchett]

.

Adam Beard played for the lions.

That's the rugby equivalent of Liz Truss being PM.

 

[Grizwald]

If McCarthy can not be the biggest idiot in the world for a month I would back him and Itoje to get Curry and VdF both into the backrow to be honest. He's the only lock that allows that but he is.... flawed.

He seems to have tailed off since he burst on to the scene. He was fancied as bring the physicality thar Ireland seem to have been stereotyped as lacking over the last world cup cycle and before. He's young so still has time.

Reminds me that James Ryan was ear marked as a future Lion's captain at one point. Still a serviceable option, just reached a ceiling?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

He seems to have tailed off since he burst on to the scene. He was fancied as bring the physicality thar Ireland seem to have been stereotyped as lacking over the last world cup cycle and before. He's young so still has time.

Reminds me that James Ryan was ear marked as a future Lion's captain at one point. Still a serviceable option, just reached a ceiling?

McCarthy's discipline is just awful, no real complaints otherwise, generally a very good tight option.

Ryan started as a dynamic lock and was turned into a pure tighthead lock. Probably not too highly thought of outside of Ireland but there's a massive correlation woth him being injured and Ireland losing games which is hard to ignore, I think he's probably our most underrated player the last 5 years.

 

[Welsh Exile]

.


That's the rugby equivalent of Liz Truss being PM.

To be fair, and I can't remember what midweek game it was, but IIRC he played pretty well. I had hopes he'd use the experience and kick on but guess he's proof that's a load of cobblers.

 

[Ddanno]

.


That's the rugby equivalent of Liz Truss being PM.

Damn dude