Champions Cup Quarter Final: Leinster v Saracens

[Leonormous Boozer]

J e sus maybe this is why we should not join pro 14, not even Leinster is getting respect despite their great season. English fans are going ape ****. Then they lose to an overated french team before being demoted.

They're joking too. This year will be this first season since 2016 that an English team other than Sarries have reached a semi final, Munster (twice) and Scarlets have done so in that time. The quality of teams in both leagues are fairly even.

I think there's too much analysis going on here, Sarries were more clinical and had a huge scrum advantage in a game that was otherwise fairly even. Take Koch and Luke McGrath out of that game and the scoreline is probably flipped.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Big talk from:
A) The country with no super rugby and maybe no rugby championship
B) The country with no representation in the semis of either euro comp

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Big talk from:
C) A fan of a team reliant on South Africans and worse than all four provinces in this year's tournament!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Big talk from:
C) A fan of a team reliant on South Africans and worse than all four provinces in this year's tournament!

If we were so bad then Ireland wouldn't be so reliant on our academy

Your provinces, 7s, u20s and XVs sides would crumble without our input

If everyone would stop pillaging our academy maybe we wouldn't have to get so many South Africans in (and South Africans are the northerners of the SH so they're basically Sale academy players anyway)

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

If we were so bad then Ireland wouldn't be so reliant on our academy

Your provinces, 7s, u20s and XVs sides would crumble without our input

If everyone would stop pillaging our academy maybe we wouldn't have to get so many South Africans in (and South Africans are the northerners of the SH so they're basically Sale academy players anyway)

You'll take AJ Macginty and Peter Stringer, and you'll shut up and be happy with the good side of the deal.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

You'll take AJ Macginty and Peter Stringer, and you'll shut up and be happy with the good side of the deal.

AJ isn't Irish he's a reverse plastic paddy, you racist

Stringer fit in more with us than Ireland because he looks like Gollum and Steve diamond looks like that Ork that directs the troops at the battle of minas tirith
Middle earthers stick together, same reason ROHAN jvr was so keen to come here

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

AJ isn't Irish he's a reverse plastic paddy, you racist

Stringer fit in more with us than Ireland because he looks like Gollum and Steve diamond looks like that Ork that directs the troops at the battle of minas tirith
Middle earthers stick together, same reason ROHAN jvr was so keen to come here

I'll have you know Stringer was our pinching at Bath. Don't your be pinching our pinches!

 

[Jimbo]

Overall a very disappointing end to a promising season but **** period in history...

From a Leinster point of view I think questions must now be asked about what exactly is achieved in the P15? If you look at the standard of opposition then Leinster should be beating them all easily. Even the other provinces are pretty handily shrugged off now. The results are ring rusty untested throat clearing like the first 40mins today.
In the second half it was somewhat evident that Leinster were a better team than Saracens but Saracens had their first half points haul to sit on and soak up pressure. After the Larmour try it looked like Saracens had run out of steam but credit to them they dug in and ground it out. Leinster lacked their usual savage "blood in the water" tenacity when they got within 5 points and that most likely was due to not actually having played much from behind a decent team this year.

A fair assessment but one thing worth noting is that Leinster had a quality bench in fact probably stronger than the starting players. Sarries did not and didn't make changes until much later, this was when the momentum really swung.

A fair assessment but one thing worth noting is that Leinster had a quality bench in fact probably stronger than the starting players. Sarries did not and didn't make changes until much later, this was when the momentum really swung.

 

[munstermuffin]

Overall a very disappointing end to a promising season but **** period in history...

From a Leinster point of view I think questions must now be asked about what exactly is achieved in the P15? If you look at the standard of opposition then Leinster should be beating them all easily. Even the other provinces are pretty handily shrugged off now. The results are ring rusty untested throat clearing like the first 40mins today.
In the second half it was somewhat evident that Leinster were a better team than Saracens but Saracens had their first half points haul to sit on and soak up pressure. After the Larmour try it looked like Saracens had run out of steam but credit to them they dug in and ground it out. Leinster lacked their usual savage "blood in the water" tenacity when they got within 5 points and that most likely was due to not actually having played much from behind a decent team this year.

Saracens were physical and really pushed the pressure points they exposed. They took their opportunity with the wind at their back and defended stoutly and intelligently when required.

The criticism going around of the referee is a bit unfair. Yes IMO he managed the scrums poorly and was inconsistent on players moving away from the ball at the breakdown BUT he had 2 second rate ARs who due to the current situation were thrust into the action. One occasion they let him down was when Itoje was WELL offside and he knew it but the AR didn't back the call so he played on. Saracens took advantage of them better than Leinster did and that's part of the game too.

In a broader sense I'm worried for Irish rugby. At national level the players have looked ring rusty since winning the Grand Slam and that's starting to flow in the provinces now. The quality of product outside of Leinster is patchy and as a result the quality of what Leinster are facing is suspect.
End result is results like today.

To be gair alot of this is pure wrong.

At start. Leinster are not shrugging aside all other provinces easily. Yes they are in a great spell like Munster 2000-2008 but these periods will swing.

Leinster also were not better team as they made countless errors and well I see alot of Leinster fans blaming ref but to be fair he was actually correct for alot. Fact is Leinster got pummelled at scrum time and were nowhere near physical enough. They made calls such as Fardy being omitted and got it wrong.
But to say the ARs are poor too. They did absolutely nothing impactful or wrong and that is a very poor response in my view. If a ref knows a player is off he calls it. And to be honest on Irish rugby the comments show just how wrong that is. The facts are Leinster got bullied at home and out fought by a better, more physical team.

Again not a dig at Leinster as Saracens just showed their experience. Fact is both teams know how to play ref but even Leinster fans I know admitted the hype had yo be reined in. Nowhere near as bad but some similarities to us in 2009.
CianHealy looked a shadow.
McGrath is gone back as much as Murray.
Larmour I think is a winger and Lowe was so quiet yesterday.
But as I said comparing to before. When do you move on from Sexton. Yes he is still good but an extra year could be bad in some ways.

 

[munstermuffin]

That was Leinsters game plan. Just didn't expect to have as big a deficit. That is why Baird etc had huge games as Sarries were burnt. But take nothing away. That bench were superb and did lay down markers.

 

[Jimbo]

From a Leinster point of view I suppose at least they know the Sarries bully's won't be able to beat them up next season, maybe Exe can step in.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Fact is Leinster got pummelled at scrum time and were nowhere near physical enough.

Choose one, not both.

Sarries scored 9 points directly off scrum penalties and scored their try about three phases after another one. (the only one which was the wrong call imo)

Leinster won the collisions overall, Sarries were good enough in the jackal to stop the comeback.

 

[munstermuffin]

Choose one, not both.

Sarries scored 9 points directly off scrum penalties and scored their try about three phases after another one. (the only one which was the wrong call imo)

Leinster won the collisions overall, Sarries were good enough in the jackal to stop the comeback.

No I'd choose both. Were destroyed come scrum time and physically struggled I thought alot of game.

I thought Sarries were better overall at collision and played it streetwise to a tee. Had more physically imposing players

 

[Reiser99]

Wrong thread!

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

No I'd choose both. Were destroyed come scrum time and physically struggled I thought alot of game.

I thought Sarries were better overall at collision and played it streetwise to a tee. Had more physically imposing players

So Sarries were better in every aspect, scored 16 off the scrum and won by 8?

Scrum and breakdown won it for them, they weren't dangerous with ball in hand apart from one try and were fairly passive in defence in comparison to us. They were helped a lot in the gainline battle by McGrath's terrible passing, players always had to check their run to take it.

I'm fairly used to teams I support getting dominated physically at the moment and yesterday wasn't an example at all, I'm also fairly used to seeing 9s on the team I'm supporting making the challenge for the forwards far greater due to an inability to make a 1.5m pass and that was more evident yesterday than Murray at his worst which says a lot.

 

[Leinster Fan]

To be gair alot of this is pure wrong.

At start. Leinster are not shrugging aside all other provinces easily. Yes they are in a great spell like Munster 2000-2008 but these periods will swing.

Leinster also were not better team as they made countless errors and well I see alot of Leinster fans blaming ref but to be fair he was actually correct for alot. Fact is Leinster got pummelled at scrum time and were nowhere near physical enough. They made calls such as Fardy being omitted and got it wrong.
But to say the ARs are poor too. They did absolutely nothing impactful or wrong and that is a very poor response in my view. If a ref knows a player is off he calls it. And to be honest on Irish rugby the comments show just how wrong that is. The facts are Leinster got bullied at home and out fought by a better, more physical team.

Again not a dig at Leinster as Saracens just showed their experience. Fact is both teams know how to play ref but even Leinster fans I know admitted the hype had yo be reined in. Nowhere near as bad but some similarities to us in 2009.
CianHealy looked a shadow.
McGrath is gone back as much as Murray.
Larmour I think is a winger and Lowe was so quiet yesterday.
But as I said comparing to before. When do you move on from Sexton. Yes he is still good but an extra year could be bad in some ways.

Some of this yes, others I don't really agree with.

Fardy being omitted was the right call. He's been poor since the restart and Baird was really good when he came on. Scott didn't have the impact required in last year's final either so isn't the answer to everything, and to be honest the strict way Gauzere was reffing the rucks he'd have been pinged constantly. Last year we went for experience over youth on the bench and couldn't come back into it. This year we went the other way and it's what gave us a chance. I wouldn't be criticising that element of the selection.

Agreed we were the worse team and Saracens deserved the win, and that blaming the ref etc is pointless. Not sure we were dominated physically though, definitely notbto the same extent we were last year or Ireland were multiple times against England. The scrum was a disaster but I thought we matched up relatively well other than that. Compared to last year where Conan and maybe Ryan were the only guys who could threaten the gainline it was night and day.

We lost because of a lack of composure in the first half which let Saracens rack up the points when they were on top, the breakdown and obviously the scrum was massive. The scrum is what cost us the end, it stopped our comeback in its tracks. Biggest difference between yesterday and 2011 is that we turned to scrum around at half time back then. Here we didn't and it meant we didn't get enough opportunities to attack the 22. Credit where credits due the Saracens defence and game management in the last 15 was exceptional and didn't give us a chance.

I agree about Healy, and have been saying it for a while. Unfortunately age is catching up with him and he's been in decline for over a year now.What's more worrying is that no one's really putting their hand up to replace him either for Leinster or Ireland. Kilcoyne was but he's injured and not a long term option either. Loosehead is becoming a real worry. Luke McGrath was poor as well and has been since the restart.

There are positives though, Larmour was excellent under the high ball and has been very solid since that poor game against Munster. Sexton's an interesting one. He's been good for Leinster this year but it can't go on forever. We have to move on sometime but to be fair we are giving Byrne more and more time in big games. Once Harry Byrne and Frawley are ready to step up in a year or two he'll be phased out but there's no need to rush it.

 

[Jimbo]

So Sarries were better in every aspect, scored 16 off the scrum and won by 8?

Scrum and breakdown won it for them, they weren't dangerous with ball in hand apart from one try and were fairly passive in defence in comparison to us. They were helped a lot in the gainline battle by McGrath's terrible passing, players always had to check their run to take it.

I'm fairly used to teams I support getting dominated physically at the moment and yesterday wasn't an example at all, I'm also fairly used to seeing 9s on the team I'm supporting making the challenge for the forwards far greater due to an inability to make a 1.5m pass and that was more evident yesterday than Murray at his worst which says a lot.

I would say Sarries were more physical until the subs then clearly they started to lose the physical edge due to fresh opposition, I would also say that assuming Sarries game plan was to Avoid using their subs they would have probably decided not to try and attack too much and avoid burning themselves out, I genuinely don't think if sarries had equivalent subs or Leinster didn't use theirs the would at any point have had a physical edge.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

The more I think about it, the less disappointed I am with the result. Leinster's problems are fixable. Improve the scrum and tighten up discipline and they win the game.

Leinster are a coming team with their best years ahead of them. They are where Sarries were 5 years ago. In the pack Ronán Kelleher, Tadhg Furlong, Andrew Porter, James Ryan, Ryan Baird, Caelan Doris, Josh van der Flier, Will Connors, Dan Leavy, Max Deegan and Jack Conan will be around for another 6 or 7 years and still have a lot of improvement in them. There are a number of backs who similarly have another 5 plus years ahead of them and plenty of talent is coming through the pipeline too.

Saracens are right in their prime. They play to their strengths, have a superb pack, defence and largely 10 man kicking based gameplan. The "Last Dance" theme being attributed to their season has some merit. When they come back into Europe, Mako Vunipola, Jamie George, Vincent Koch, Tim Swinson, Michael Rhodes, Billy Vunipola, Jackson Wray, Owen Farrell, Alex Lewington, Duncan Taylor, Alex Goode (outstanding yesterday) will all be 30 plus and a number of them are already over that mark. Ben Earl, Max Malins, Nick Tompkins, Manu Vunipola, Jack Singleton and Nick Isiekwe amongst others will inject youth but will they improve upon the current generation?

Not interested in getting involved in a ******* contest about which league is better. but do think Leinster should be pushing for at the very least a B&I League. Top teams playing each other more often will generate more revenue and be more interesting for fans.

 

[munstermuffin]

The more I think about it, the less disappointed I am with the result. Leinster's problems are fixable. Improve the scrum and tighten up discipline and they win the game.

Leinster are a coming team with their best years ahead of them. They are where Sarries were 5 years ago. In the pack Ronán Kelleher, Tadhg Furlong, Andrew Porter, James Ryan, Ryan Baird, Caelan Doris, Josh van der Flier, Will Connors, Dan Leavy, Max Deegan and Jack Conan will be around for another 6 or 7 years and still have a lot of improvement in them. There are a number of backs who similarly have another 5 plus years ahead of them and plenty of talent is coming through the pipeline too.

Saracens are right in their prime. They play to their strengths, have a superb pack, defence and largely 10 man kicking based gameplan. The "Last Dance" theme being attributed to their season has some merit. When they come back into Europe, Mako Vunipola, Jamie George, Vincent Koch, Tim Swinson, Michael Rhodes, Billy Vunipola, Jackson Wray, Owen Farrell, Alex Lewington, Duncan Taylor, Alex Goode (outstanding yesterday) will all be 30 plus and a number of them are already over that mark. Ben Earl, Max Malins, Nick Tompkins, Manu Vunipola, Jack Singleton and Nick Isiekwe amongst others will inject youth but will they improve upon the current generation?

Not interested in getting involved in a ******* contest about which league is better. but do think Leinster should be pushing for at the very least a B&I League. Top teams playing each other more often will generate more revenue and be more interesting for fans.

100% agree with this. Leinster will be more beneficial from yesterday. As it was youthful lads who drove it on. 9 and 10 will be I think not issues as much the bigger areas that need addressing and their aerial game will need addressing

 

[munstermuffin]

So Sarries were better in every aspect, scored 16 off the scrum and won by 8?

Scrum and breakdown won it for them, they weren't dangerous with ball in hand apart from one try and were fairly passive in defence in comparison to us. They were helped a lot in the gainline battle by McGrath's terrible passing, players always had to check their run to take it.

I'm fairly used to teams I support getting dominated physically at the moment and yesterday wasn't an example at all, I'm also fairly used to seeing 9s on the team I'm supporting making the challenge for the forwards far greater due to an inability to make a 1.5m pass and that was more evident yesterday than Murray at his worst which says a lot.

No what I said was Sarries were much better in scrum and were much more powerful. Also more smarter.

Never mentioned Sarries back play once. But up front they won it by being clever. And won by 8 but Leinster pulled points back when Sarries were gassed. So not exactly a of 16 off scrum but 8 was final gap. That was inevitable that last 15 Leinster would be on top due to s1uad