• Help Support The Rugby Forum :

Change needed in scrums - Suggestions

Ragey Erasmus

Hall of Fame
TRF Legend
Joined
Sep 20, 2011
Messages
13,617
Reaction score
10,475
Something I've been talking about with others and seen discussed on Scrum V forum. I think most people can agree that scrums now are too prone to going wrong and take up far too much time with resets. They are also difficult to referee. So what do people think of this proposal:
- The hit is to be removed. Players are to be in position and bound to their opposite before any shoving is done.
- Emphasis on the ball being put in straight as a result rather than simply feeding it straight to their own side.
- Possibly have the TMO watching the scrum as well to let the ref know if something happened he missed.
- With exceptions for a pitch being torn up, there should be a limit to the number of resets (possibly 3)
- Try to make it so refs have pretty standard timing when calling the scrum.

I feel these changes would make scrums easier to ref, harder to get away with cheating and ultimately waste less game time. Thoughts?
 
Even having been only part of a few scrums, I still feel that the initial hit is absolutely crucial. If both teams have a fairly even pack, a good hit will give one side the mental advantage of knowing they made a good hit, which can easily lead to a physical advantage. I'm fine with the middle three, but I think the timing being all up to the ref is a great system. Gotta always make sure you listen to the referee and it's one way of making sure that they do listen to him. Don't listen to the ref? Get penalized. Listen to the ref? Play on fine.
 
The hit is a recent phenomena in rugby and there is no rule that says, as some refs do, "you have to take the hit"!

The proposals are very sensible and would only say that am not sure that you should limit the resets as this gives the weaker side an advantage or the ref the same gamble in awarding a free kick or penalty as now.

Besides, if the scrum is engaged as proposed, the scrum half puts the ball in straight when the scrums are steady and THEN the scrums start to push, there would be no need for the ref to call anything or, in all probability many resets!!

Good Lord, that is how it used to be...................!!!

The TMO being used would, in my opinion anyway, just cause more lost playing time while they conferred and, he would have to look at more than one view of the scrum before he could make any better informed decision exasperating it further?
 
Something I've been talking about with others and seen discussed on Scrum V forum. I think most people can agree that scrums now are too prone to going wrong and take up far too much time with resets. They are also difficult to referee. So what do people think of this proposal:
- The hit is to be removed. Players are to be in position and bound to their opposite before any shoving is done.
- Emphasis on the ball being put in straight as a result rather than simply feeding it straight to their own side.
- Possibly have the TMO watching the scrum as well to let the ref know if something happened he missed.
- With exceptions for a pitch being torn up, there should be a limit to the number of resets (possibly 3)
- Try to make it so refs have pretty standard timing when calling the scrum.

I feel these changes would make scrums easier to ref, harder to get away with cheating and ultimately waste less game time. Thoughts?

Stop! Just stop it right there!

You are NOT allowed to make sensible suggestions about scrummaging!

Actually, you could be Brian Moore's friend for life if you keep up this sort of talk.

I have some ideas to add to yours, but I'm about to go out, so I'll get around to it later .
 
Something I've been talking about with others and seen discussed on Scrum V forum. I think most people can agree that scrums now are too prone to going wrong and take up far too much time with resets. They are also difficult to referee. So what do people think of this proposal:
- The hit is to be removed. Players are to be in position and bound to their opposite before any shoving is done.
- Emphasis on the ball being put in straight as a result rather than simply feeding it straight to their own side.
- Possibly have the TMO watching the scrum as well to let the ref know if something happened he missed.
- With exceptions for a pitch being torn up, there should be a limit to the number of resets (possibly 3)
- Try to make it so refs have pretty standard timing when calling the scrum.

I feel these changes would make scrums easier to ref, harder to get away with cheating and ultimately waste less game time. Thoughts?

All of the above but the IRB dont seem to be listerning, they are obsessed with keeping this "hit" thing.
 
The hit was never originally part of the setting of the scrum, and in fact, it appears that the iRB is slowly but surely coming around to the realisation that it was never really a good idea in the first place. Its only taken them 25 years to get it, but to be fair, this is not like having a simple technical Law change, for example, a five second limit at rucks, or deciding where a quick throw in is taken. The scrummage involves some very complex mechanics. Very small changes can make a very big difference, and getting it wrong has the potential for catastrophic injuries to players. Nobody wants that to happen, and I think nobody will worry about some money being spent to prevent it happening.

The "hit on engage" has been an absolute failure. It may have worked for a short while, but it became apparent to me some years ago that it was not achieving what it was intended to do; to lock the scrum together.

Correct binding is what locks the scrum. It always has been and always will be.

The importance of long and correct binding cannot be overstated.

bind.jpg


In this photo, the gold LHP is bound correctly if a little short, but the Blue THP is bound illegally. Law 20.3 (d) specifically outlaws binding on the opponent's arm. His hand ought to be up where the check mark is.

In his current position, the Blue THP can exert a lot of pressure on the LHP's bind arm, and force him to fold under. It will allow the Blue THP to "turn in" and put pressure on the Gold hooker's neck. It also allows him to drag the Gold LHP with him. This is a favourite technique of several top international props for getting the better of their opponents including a certain, well known hairy Italian prop. However, there are two problems with this technique...

1. It is illegal.

2. It can be very difficult for the referee to spot, because if the LHP's arm goes under, you can't really tell if he is doing it himself, or he's being forced by the THP.

The best way to deal with it is for the referee to prevent the THP from getting into a position that allows him to use the technique in the first place, and it really is simple.... make the THP bind like this...

scrumbind3A.jpg


In this position, it is very much more difficult for him to fold the LHP under, because he has less leverage. It is also easier for the LHP to resist.

Also, even if the THP does try it on, it will be much easier to spot.

Currently, a "trial within a trial" is taking place in Australia, New Zealand and in the Pacific Islands. While the "crouch", "touch", "set" engagement calls currently being trialled globally, in the Pacific Rugby Championship, the NZ and Australian Super Rugby development competitions and in the respective and national academy sides, a revised scrum engagement sequence is being tested.

For this test, props will be expected to bind using their outside arm after the referee has called "touch" in the sequence. The front-rows will maintain the bind until the referee calls "set". The the two packs then engage. So the sequence is

Crouch
Touch (bind)
Set

This definitely looks like a return to the type of scrummaging we had before the hit. Hopefully, if this trial works out, we'll see a return to props who prop the scrum, hookers who hook the ball, and scrum halves made to feed the ball straight.
 
Currently, a "trial within a trial" is taking place in Australia, New Zealand and in the Pacific Islands. While the "crouch", "touch", "set" engagement calls currently being trialled globally, in the Pacific Rugby Championship, the NZ and Australian Super Rugby development competitions and in the respective and national academy sides, a revised scrum engagement sequence is being tested.

For this test, props will be expected to bind using their outside arm after the referee has called "touch" in the sequence. The front-rows will maintain the bind until the referee calls "set". The the two packs then engage. So the sequence is

Crouch
Touch (bind)
Set

This definitely looks like a return to the type of scrummaging we had before the hit. Hopefully, if this trial works out, we'll see a return to props who prop the scrum, hookers who hook the ball, and scrum halves made to feed the ball straight.


Seems very sensible (and not that far removed from the front rows going down first) to make it very acceptable as far I am concerned!! When does this trial end and how is it going so far?
 
I agree that this is a sensible approach. The scrum was supposed to be a means of restarting a game but has become a way of re-stopping it. The number of free kicks awarded for early engagement has become an embarrassment in the current 6N.
 
Seems very sensible (and not that far removed from the front rows going down first) to make it very acceptable as far I am concerned!! When does this trial end and how is it going so far?

I saw some of the Crusader Knights' match against the Wellington development squad in a pre-season match at Rugby park in mid-Feb. Hard to assess without video, but there didn't appear to be any obvious problems.
 
I saw some of the Crusader Knights' match against the Wellington development squad in a pre-season match at Rugby park in mid-Feb. Hard to assess without video, but there didn't appear to be any obvious problems.
Smartcooky, I don't pretend to know what's going on in scrums, I just express pretty consistently that something is wrong and the hit in particular needs to be removed. From your more educated perspective, which international props are the most illegal in their technique? To me, Cian Healy's improvement at scrum time seems to be largely down to his complete neglect of binding correctly. I can't really fault him since if ref don't pick up on it, he'd be crazy not to continue doing something that works for him.
 
Smartcooky, I don't pretend to know what's going on in scrums, I just express pretty consistently that something is wrong and the hit in particular needs to be removed.
Well for mine, the hit is unnecessary, and actually causes more problems than it solves, so I would be quite happy to get back to having no hit at all, and just have the two front rows come together and get the scrum stable before ball is put in. This seems to be what the iRB are working their way back to.

► No pushing or trying to out muscle for opponent until the ball is in

► The ball is not to be put in until the scrum is square and stable

► The ball must be put in straight so that the hookers have to hook the ball.

Now I'm not asking for ramrod straight. For me, the test for straightness was always "would the ball have clearly rolled out of the far end of the tunnel if it wasn't hooked". If not, then the ball wasn't put in straight, and it is very clear to me that most put ins at international level are nothing like straight, and often directly into the second row.

If you make the ball be put in straight, then you force the hookers to hook the ball, and you take some of the prop's focus away from getting the better of his opposite, and more toward supporting his hooker so that he can get a decent strike.


...which international props are the most illegal in their technique? To me, Cian Healy's improvement at scrum time seems to be largely down to his complete neglect of binding correctly. I can't really fault him since if ref don't pick up on it, he'd be crazy not to continue doing something that works for him.

To some extent, all international props bind illegally, although that is changing. I think I have seen more PK's for illegal binding in the last two years than for a long time before.

While Healy's binding may be illegal, he is a loosehead prop, which means he can't bind on the arm of his opponent anyway (a lucy's arm has to pass inside the tighthead's arm - Law 20.3).

Looseheads trying to do stuff illegally generally try to bind under their tighthead opponent (on the collar or chest) so that they can turn inwards and try to make the tighthead uncomfortable by jamming his head against the hooker's head; this technique is called "boring in". It may be that you think Healy is not binding at all because his arm is inside the scrum and out of sight.

IMO, the greatest recidivist offenders among international props as far as not binding correctly, and then using that illegality to disrupt their opponents are Martin Castrogiovanni, Adam Jones, Ben Alexander and Owen Franks. The French prop Nicolas Mas also earns (dis)honourable mention.

Now why I consider correct binding to be so important, is that in a correctly bound scrum, the two props form an arch over the tunnel. Any architectural design student will tell you that an arch is one of the strongest shapes you can make. If it is correctly keyed at the top, it will support itself, and wont collapse.

Scrum1-1.jpg

NOTE: The THP binding here is marginal. I would prefer his hand be up near the yellow dot.

It is well understood that a bent arm is much stronger than a straight arm. If you don't believe this, try lifting the heaviest weight you can with a bent arm, and see if you can still lift it when your arm is dead straight. You won't be able to. Now consider how we want the props to bind. If we allow them to bind illegally on their opponent's arm, chest or collar, they are doing so with a the "stronger" bent arm, which gives them power to push and pull in any direction, especially, in directions that will promote collapse. However, if we make them bind straight, this weakens their bind arm in the "disruption directions", and allows them strength only in the direction we want, which is pulling the opponent towards them, and this will lock the top of the arch together and keep the scrum from collapsing.

I firmly believe that if referees insisted on legal binding as a "no deviation" prerequisite, before the ball was put in, i.e. the ball is not put in until the scrum is square and stable, and the props are correctly bound, then the number of resets and collapsed scrums would be drastically reduced.
 
I play halfback and to be honest, I have given up on feeding the ball at club level it's a gamble. Some refs you put it in perfectly straight and they have a sook, some refs I may as well pass it to the number 8 and they won't care. Scrums are my least fave part of playing halfback right now.
 
My suggestion is total abolition of scrums.
In most cases (except carryback), scrum should be replaced by FK.
In the case of carryback, scrum should be replaced by a suicide point (1 point to the opponent side).
 
Please anyone show me the law that says anything about the hit or there must be a hit? Attacking teams want stable scrum defensive team wants to disrupt the scrum. If they want to take the scrum down they will take it down. And if they get a penalty out of it they will do it all day. Nothing wrong with the scrums. Just the referees have no clue what is going on in them. They memorize like parrots certain points and check for what they can without understanding how it really works or who is really doing what. Scrums do not need changing referees need to be schooled properly. And i mean schooled in trade secrets of front rowers. That will be pretty hard to get as they do not even tell secrets when they are writings books. Like a vow and code they keep to themselves and pass on to other front rowers.
 
I am more worried about the breakdown and the handle of it by referees. Its more a problem zs scrums as there are about 150 of them a game and when ball is comimg out slow referees do not even realize something is wrong or try and and correct it.

But here is a simple solution for scrums. Change penalties to freekicks with all scrum infringements. They won't go cheating for 3 pointers or it won't matter as much as well as the referee won't have such a influence on the scoreboard with scrum calls
 
Last edited:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01rxp8z/5_live_Sport_5_live_Rugby_The_Scrum/

Has anyone else listened to this? Some startling admissions from the IRB guy "none of the elite referees want a straight put in".

The situation is absolutely farcical.

Do not allow a shove before the ball is put in, put the ball in straight down the middle.
His attitude toward the fact that ref's have taken it upon themselves to change the laws is dumfounding.

Note that we have on tape someone from the IRB saying that during the global trials of the new engagement process the existing laws will be enforced...
Anyone believe this?
 

Latest posts

Sponsored
UnlistMe
Back
Top