Confusion

[Which Tyler]

6 Pools of 4 doesn't increase the duration of the tournament either.

Really? I'd never noticed. Next you'll be telling me that 3 is a smaller number than 5.

In fact it replaces a round of walkovers for an extra playoff round where there's pressure and increased possibility of upsets. So for example, even a tier 1 Scotland playing SA in a second round playoff would be a way more interesting game than them meeting in a "group of death."

So it replaces a walk-over in the pools for a walk-over knock-out game? Seedings would put a full stop to your idea of potential upsets in a round-of-16


The trouble with 6 pools is that it doesn't fit into a knockout format with any fairness. Someone gets through whilst ranking the same in their pool as someone who doesn't, which is even more reliant on who's in the pool than doing it properly.

I can't see any upside for 6x4 over 4x6 (given that 8 week tourney is already decided as being fine), but I can list downsides. All, of course, IMO.

 

[miccloarch]

When we talk about tier 2 we often think about the Pacific Islands, but realistically their populations are so small that they are never going to have consistently competitive teams and no real domestic infrastructure with their players being scattered abroad. From time to time as Fiji have now they'll have golden generations but not consistently. Not to say they shouldn't get exposure, of course they should, just to manage expectations. Samoa population 200K, Tonga 100K, Fiji 900K.

The likes of the US and Canada, Spain, Germany etc are different questions. But even Italy with all the exposure they've had haven't really gone beyond winning the occasional game against T1 teams.

Look at the football World Cup. Much broader game, but the finals all tend to be traditional powerhouses- Arg, Fra, Bra, Ger etc. Croatia made one final but fundamentally it's the teams from the heartlands - which I think applies in most team sports, although much less so in individual ones.

Football is very different and much more open. Morocco made the SF last time out. Surprise semi finalists are actually a regular occurrence: Croatia 1998, Korea 2002, Turkey 2002, Uruguay 2010, Croatia again in 2018. It's not fair to compare to football either because it's a much more popular sport and of course a lot more money involved. The format of the tournament is better though (well, the 2026 format is a bit of sh!tshow but that's another story).

Definitely not expecting the likes of Fiji, Italy, Japan and Georgia to win World Cups, only to be allowed to compete. Fiji always have decent teams. Italy have been up and down for two decades since expanding the 5N for a lot of reasons but they clearly have the ability and the cattle to be in the mix with Scotland and Wales at least. Put some jeopardy on the wooden spoon is all I'm saying.

 

[miccloarch]

given that 8 week tourney is already decided as being fine

Aye, there's the rub.

Seedings would put a full stop to your idea of potential upsets in a round-of-16

Citation needed. Key word: potential upsets. By default there's clearly more pressure on the team expected to win in a playoff game than in a regular pool game.

I can't see any upside for 6x4 over 4x6 [...] but I can list downsides

I can't see any upside for 4x6 over 6x4 but I can list downsides.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Football is very different and much more open. Morocco made the SF last time out. Surprise semi finalists are actually a regular occurrence: Croatia 1998, Korea 2002, Turkey 2002, Uruguay 2010, Croatia again in 2018. It's not fair to compare to football either because it's a much more popular sport and of course a lot more money involved. The format of the tournament is better though (well, the 2026 format is a bit of sh!tshow but that's another story).

Definitely not expecting the likes of Fiji, Italy, Japan and Georgia to win World Cups, only to be allowed to compete. Fiji always have decent teams. Italy have been up and down for two decades since expanding the 5N for a lot of reasons but they clearly have the ability and the cattle to be in the mix with Scotland and Wales at least. Put some jeopardy on the wooden spoon is all I'm saying.

Suspect if you looked at the quarter finalists in most football tournaments the majority would be fairly predictable, but you're right it's not apples with apples and I think the player numbers and more technical nature of rugby will always make it harder to break through regardless of what governing bodies do or don't do.

The key word is compete. I want competition, not taking part and being hammered - that doesn't really do anyone any good. Someone, possibly @Quel Carreleur, has mentioned plate / shield competitions and there's very definitely mileage in that.

 

[Which Tyler]

The key word is compete. I want competition, not taking part and being hammered - that doesn't really do anyone any good. Someone, possibly @Quel Carreleur, has mentioned plate / shield competitions and there's very definitely mileage in that.

It's certainly something I'm a fan of. In RWC terms though, it means keeping amateurs away from their jobs for an extra few weeks, so it does have practical limitations.
My preferred option is a condensing of quality, so a RWC of 16 teams, with a dedicated qualifying tourney a year earlier, as part and parcel of the whole thing.

Ultimately, the desire to not see blow-outs, and the desire to involve the lesser lights are directly contradictory, and that's the best compromise I've been able to come up with.

 

[miccloarch]

I want competition, not taking part and being hammered - that doesn't really do anyone any good.

Actually, it let's the team on the receiving end know exactly how far away they are from the standard. Remember when the ABs beat SA 57-0? Look what happened next. Slightly different paradigm because SA are expected to be a lot better and have more resources blah blah but the same principle applies.

I'm all for the plate/shield/bowl competitions as well but the important changes should happen outside of the World Cup:

• One or two relegation spots in the 6/5N; Promotion through Rugby Europe championship or whatever its called;
• One or two relegation spots in the RC; Promotion through the Pacific Nations cup;

 

[Half Pint]

To change the subject completely - I just realised that Namibia have completed their World Cup.
What kind of crazy scheduling lets them complete all four of their matches, when a whole bunch of other teams have only played two games?

 

[AlRums]

To change the subject completely - I just realised that Namibia have completed their World Cup.
What kind of crazy scheduling lets them complete all four of their matches, when a whole bunch of other teams have only played two games?

It's round 4 of 5 of the group games which won't finish until Sunday, then 4 teams will have completed their group games

Namibia, South Africa, Australia and Chile

Every other team has had a week off

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Actually, it let's the team on the receiving end know exactly how far away they are from the standard.

And how far are Italy after their mauling last night?

 

[miccloarch]

And how far are Italy after their mauling last night?

They must feel dead in the water. Very naïve game plan though, trying to take the ABs on at their own game. To give the ABs a game you need to play negative percentage rugby like the Boks or England lol.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

They must feel dead in the water. Very naïve game plan though, trying to take the ABs on at their own game. To give the ABs a game you need to play negative percentage rugby like the Boks or England lol.

Given they played in the first RWC and in the six nations since 2000 it's not a good look on the so called tier 1 nations and the gap between them and NZ, when getting thrashed by 79 points. This isn't a vintage AB side either. But yes their game plan didn't help one bit.

 

[Jimbo]

Given they played in the first RWC and in the six nations since 2000 it's not a good look on the so called tier 1 nations and the gap between them and NZ, when getting thrashed by 79 points. This isn't a vintage AB side either. But yes their game plan didn't help one bit.

This is it, I keep seeing people banging on about involving T2 nations in major tournaments improving them etc, but on the evidence we have seen it's not likely to make a meaningful lasting difference, I'm not suggesting it should be ignored and cricket scores should remain common in WCs but don't think it's as simple as is often made out.