Dan Carter's back up for the EOY Tour

[ranger]

slade is playing well no doubt about it,

and I think he's a sure thing for the EOY tour. I think almost for sure another 10 option will tour, it will be tactical looking towards ther WC and finding the best backup for carter. also carter is coming back from injury and though aiming to be ready for the opener against AUS he wont be a sure thing.

Donalds performance went a fair way beyond just "playing well" I'd challenge any of you to come up with a more dominant performance by a 10 in this years ITM cup. What impressed me was it wasn't any one thing he did well. Pretty much everything he did was brilliant. Positional kicking was great, kicking for goal was very good and I think of the kicks there was one from each side of the park so they weren't all easy. Though one of his kickoffs didn't go 10 the rest were very good, he got a lot of height on them allowing his players to contest. His passing was top class, leading to a couple of trys. Mills scored a try of a chip of his. He scored two trys of his own, one powering through some defenders close to the line and the other off a great little kick. Good decision making and Good defence. And that huge bomb he sent up, the height on it was awesome and it came down just outside the 22, spot on.

otago aren't a bad team either, great thing about this itm cup and more so this time in the ITM cup when all the players are trying to play out of their skin for super contracts. Only need to look to last weekend for proof when Otago gave canterbury a scare.

And that may well come down to Cruden vs. Donald which IMO is a battle of the Form player against the project player.

Thats harsh, Cruden isn't playing too badly himself.. And he doesn't have the luxury of an allstar cast around him either..

 

[Shaggy]

Manawatu V Waikato next weekend, which will be a good opportunity to see Cruden and Donald against one another

 

[nickdnz]

Donalds performance went a fair way beyond just "playing well" I'd challenge any of you to come up with a more dominant performance by a 10 in this years ITM cup. What impressed me was it wasn't any one thing he did well. Pretty much everything he did was brilliant. Positional kicking was great, kicking for goal was very good and I think of the kicks there was one from each side of the park so they weren't all easy. Though one of his kickoffs didn't go 10 the rest were very good, he got a lot of height on them allowing his players to contest. His passing was top class, leading to a couple of trys. Mills scored a try of a chip of his. He scored two trys of his own, one powering through some defenders close to the line and the other off a great little kick. Good decision making and Good defence. And that huge bomb he sent up, the height on it was awesome and it came down just outside the 22, spot on.

otago aren't a bad team either, great thing about this itm cup and more so this time in the ITM cup when all the players are trying to play out of their skin for super contracts. Only need to look to last weekend for proof when Otago gave canterbury a scare.

And that may well come down to Cruden vs. Donald which IMO is a battle of the Form player against the project player.

Cruden played amazing well for Manuwatu, pretty much winning the game by himself. If Cruden was playing for a better team, I think he'd develop into a much better player, where as Donald did have a great team to work with.

Otago are a **** team. Probably the worse team in the ITM Cup at the moment, which is why they're coming dead last.

 

[Shaggy]

Cruden played amazing well for Manuwatu, pretty much winning the game by himself. If Cruden was playing for a better team, I think he'd develop into a much better player, where as Donald did have a great team to work with.

Otago are a **** team. Probably the worse team in the ITM Cup at the moment, which is why they're coming dead last.

Yep, Otago probably are the worst team now ... Tasman just beat BOP , so I think Otago will finish last ... would have liked to have seen some more games involving Cruden, but not much coverage of Manawatu here

 

[ranger]

Yep, Otago probably are the worst team now ... Tasman just beat BOP , so I think Otago will finish last ... would have liked to have seen some more games involving Cruden, but not much coverage of Manawatu here

Well last week after Manawatu were trailing at half time Cruden made a huge break, giving them the field position to set up their first try, then ran through 6 defenders to score a try of his own and seal the Turbos first ever victory against the Makos.
Then against Taranaki, Cruden kept Manawatu in the game with 11 points, keeping the score at 18-16 until the 72nd minute when Taranaki ran in two soft tries. He directed play very well and made all of Manawatus linebreaks, but hes really having to try and win these games with no support. He can't show what hes got like Donald can because he doesn't have many quality players around him.

 

[smartcooky]

I thought Slade was outstanding in the Shield challenge. He played well under a lot of pressure and delivered the goods when they were needed.

I reckon Slade is the real deal; a genuine 10 who can play other positions as well. The Highlanders have made a good buy there.

 

[Larksea]

yeah heck Waikato vs the turbos will be one to watch. Cruden vs. Donald - about as close to a mini AB trial as you can get.

Last round is Waikato vs. Canterbury which will be one to watch as well, been looking forward to that one slade vs donald and will surely decide the shape of the top 4. Though the AB squad will already be set by then.

I dont believe Otago are such a bad side right now, I think they were a bit up and down at the start of the season though they have had quite a few close losses. None of the teams have shown to be unworthy of the competition in my Book and there havn't been many thrashings, turbo's loss to Northland being the exception. Even the bottom 3 teams have had some good wins. I think it's going to be a shame to see the draw be split. The format for this year would be very good for NZ Rugby long term. And give a much better base for super rugby selection.

Otago:
Close loss to southland when they very nearly took the shield. That game could have gone either way.
They beat Hawkes bay & Tasman
Close loss to northland
They were in the Bay of Plenty game till near the end.
Pushed Canterbury to 20 all, was all on till the sheep shaggers pulled away in the end.

The bell ringers are the only team that have "thrashed" them, even then they managed to win some Areas of the game. Only difference really was that Donald had a blinder and the Otago Scrum was well beaten.

 

[ranger]

yeah heck Waikato vs the turbos will be one to watch. Cruden vs. Donald - about as close to a mini AB trial as you can get.

Last round is Waikato vs. Canterbury which will be one to watch as well, been looking forward to that one slade vs donald and will surely decide the shape of the top 4. Though the AB squad will already be set by then.

I dont believe Otago are such a bad side right now, I think they were a bit up and down at the start of the season though they have had quite a few close losses. None of the teams have shown to be unworthy of the competition in my Book and there havn't been many thrashings, turbo's loss to Northland being the exception. Even the bottom 3 teams have had some good wins. I think it's going to be a shame to see the draw be split. The format for this year would be very good for NZ Rugby long term. And give a much better base for super rugby selection.

Otago:
Close loss to southland when they very nearly took the shield. That game could have gone either way.
They beat Hawkes bay & Tasman
Close loss to northland
They were in the Bay of Plenty game till near the end.
Pushed Canterbury to 20 all, was all on till the sheep shaggers pulled away in the end.

The bell ringers are the only team that have "thrashed" them, even then they managed to win some Areas of the game. Only difference really was that Donald had a blinder and the Otago Scrum was well beaten.

I would argue that Otago is a very poor outfit who are trying to play very safe rugby to keep the game close, where as the likes of the Makos, Manawatu and Counties throw everything at it going all out for the victory. Otago may have had some close results, but if you watch them play you can tell that they are never reaally in with a chance of winning.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

I would argue that Otago is a very poor outfit who are trying to play very safe rugby to keep the game close, where as the likes of the Makos, Manawatu and Counties throw everything at it going all out for the victory. Otago may have had some close results, but if you watch them play you can tell that they are never reaally in with a chance of winning.

Pffft that's a load of crap. So you're saying a team like England, who plays close rugby, is never gonna win?

 

[Dizzy]

This may seem like a real silly suggestion, but, how about giving superman some real intense First Five Eight training and having him as Carters back up.
I mean, Carter started at second five and now he's the worlds best no.10...
Put Superman there, he's good at everything why not give him a go, he has the ability to draw in defenders and still give the offload creating space for his outside men. with a few months of intense first five training I think he'll be a very dominant force...

I know he's not built like a first five but seriously I think we might be on to something.

 

[ranger]

Pffft that's a load of crap. So you're saying a team like England, who plays close rugby, is never gonna win?

The likes of England and Southland use their forwards to put them in a position to win. Otago seem to play their tactics to minimize the damage. Its a totally different situation.

 

[Larksea]

This may seem like a real silly suggestion, but, how about giving superman some real intense First Five Eight training and having him as Carters back up.
I mean, Carter started at second five and now he's the worlds best no.10...
Put Superman there, he's good at everything why not give him a go, he has the ability to draw in defenders and still give the offload creating space for his outside men. with a few months of intense first five training I think he'll be a very dominant force...

I know he's not built like a first five but seriously I think we might be on to something.

Can't... Because Superman's already playing openside flanker for the All Blacks.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

The likes of England and Southland use their forwards to put them in a position to win. Otago seem to play their tactics to minimize the damage. Its a totally different situation.

And these tactics are..?

 

[Sam Owen]

Hey Larksea, sounds like we should be watching your supergreat 'uber' Stephen Donald vs Dan Carter, seen as he's just 'uber'.

Like we said before and we all know, Donald is good, thats old. A lot of has have all seen him for a couple of years now so if some (most) dont feel he's not 'uber' than fair enough. Thats all.

 

[smartcooky]

And these tactics are..?

...called spoiling... done by;

►Sometimes giving away a possible 3 points instead of 5 or 7

►Not pushing the ball wide, and instead, keeping the ball close to the ruck/maul/tackle so that the chance of having the ball carrier isolated (and the ball turned over) is minimised.

►kicking the ball short field with chasers to minimise the chance of counter-attack.

If you would like to see some examples of this, look no further than the 2009 Tri-Nations and watch how the Springboks played. I can provide you some IRB Match stats about those games that will knock your socks off, for example, in one game,

► the New Zealand scrum half made almost 30% more passes than the entire South African team
► the New Zealand front row players made 3 times as many passes as the 2 South African wings, 2 centres and full back combined
► the South African hooker made as many passes as their outside half and as many as the remaining 5 three quarters
► the South Africa centres touched the ball 8 times and made a total of 2 passes, while the New Zealand centres touched the ball 43 times and passed the ball 21 times

In 2009, the Springboks gave us a master class on playing negatively, spoiling, doing nothing with the ball, and waiting for mistakes, and we made those mistakes, and we paid for them too.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

...called spoiling... done by;

►Sometimes giving away a possible 3 points instead of 5 or 7

►Not pushing the ball wide, and instead, keeping the ball close to the ruck/maul/tackle so that the chance of having the ball carrier isolated (and the ball turned over) is minimised.

►kicking the ball short field with chasers to minimise the chance of counter-attack.

If you would like to see some examples of this, look no further than the 2009 Tri-Nations and watch how the Springboks played. I can provide you some IRB Match stats about those games that will knock your socks off, for example, in one game,

► the New Zealand scrum half made almost 30% more passes than the entire South African team
► the New Zealand front row players made 3 times as many passes as the 2 South African wings, 2 centres and full back combined
► the South African hooker made as many passes as their outside half and as many as the remaining 5 three quarters
► the South Africa centres touched the ball 8 times and made a total of 2 passes, while the New Zealand centres touched the ball 43 times and passed the ball 21 times

In 2009, the Springboks gave us a master class on playing negatively, spoiling, doing nothing with the ball, and waiting for mistakes, and we made those mistakes, and we paid for them too.

So the Springboks weren't trying to win, they were just trying to minimize the damage? As Ranger put it. Seems a bit odd...

EDIT: Those stats are fascinating though

 

[smartcooky]

So the Springboks weren't trying to win, they were just trying to minimize the damage? As Ranger put it. Seems a bit odd...

No but they were making damn sure that the All Blacks could not get their counter attacking game going. The idea is a simple one;

► don't take any risks when you have possession
► put pressure on the opposition when they have possession
► capitalise ruthlessly when they make a mistake

EDIT: Those stats are fascinating though

Heres the whole document

http://www.mediafire.com/?94416a125d417yi

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

No but they were making damn sure that the All Blacks could not get their counter attacking game going. The idea is a simple one;

► don't take any risks when you have possession
► put pressure on the opposition when they have possession
► capitalise ruthlessly when they make a mistake


Heres the whole document

http://www.mediafire.com/?94416a125d417yi

Don't worry, I'm just going by what Ranger said

 

[Shaggy]

Here's TVNZ's Martin Devlin's take on the No.10 back up ... not sure if I agree with his ranking, and personally, i'm looking forward to the naming of the squad, so that we can hopefully all get behind whoever is picked, and that they will hopefully get enough game time

... interesting to read the comments from the public attached to this article as well ... it's very pro Slade

http://tvnz.co.nz/all-blacks/martin-devlin-cruden-no-back-up-carter-3834065

Martin Devlin: Cruden no back-up for Carter

Published: 11:49AM Wednesday October 13, 2010
Source: ONE Sport
By Martin Devlin for tvnz.co.nz

Aaron Cruden emerges from Dan Carter's shadow - Source: Photosport


With the Grand Slam squad being announced Sunday night, you'd think the All Blacks selectors have little choice but to backtrack on their immediate plans for Aaron Cruden and admit that right now, he is clearly not the second best number 10 in New Zealand.

In fact the pecking order has changed so dramatically since the ABs' last Bledisloe Test in Sydney, Cruden would be struggling to even make the top five.

On form, in order, our best first five-eights are as follows:

Dan Carter, Daniel Carter, DC, DW Carter, Daniel William Carter esq.

The man is a rugby God, case closed. Next comes daylight, before starlight, the moon, the asteroid belt, the Solar System, Milky Way, whatever new far-flung galaxies are being formed in time's eternal hyper-spaced stratosphere, then the chasing pack.

After all that is Colin Slade (Cant), Stephen Donald (Waik), Mike Delaney (BoP), (perhaps even) Piri Weepu (Wgtn), with Cruden (Manawatu) relegated to a distant sixth.

Let's dispense with any emotion in this argument and deal only in facts.

Fact: With RWC a year away, the All Blacks need a permanent, fail-safe, Mr Reliable back-up to DC.

Fact: That player has to be, at all times, test ready and capable of stepping into any situation against any opponent - not test "potential", but test "ready".

Fact: There are several other players, already boasting significantly more test-match experience than Cruden, who (more importantly) are simply playing better than the youngster currently is.

Aaron Cruden is an excellent, exciting prospect. He also has plenty of time ahead in which to develop his game and looks set to be an automatic AB selection for, quite probably, many years to come.

However, no matter how great his potential, high performance international sport is all about pragmatic decision making with zero room for sentiment - and right now, in terms of sheer ability, the man isn't so demonstrably superior to his competition that he demands to be selected.

AC is not a dependable, test-hardened, fail-safe replacement for DC. He simply isn't of the age or experience to (have to) shoulder the ultimate responsibility of, if Dan was injured, a RWC quarter, semi or final for NZ - not yet anyway.

Despite flagging Cruden weeks ago as the starting first five in Hong Kong, there's always room for the selectors to reconsider. Now is not the time to think "future", now's the time to think nothing but win the next test match - and then win the one after that. And then, the next one too.

It'd be utter folly to risk this young man a year out from the RWC, especially when there are others available who have already demonstrated they have the quality and composure to perform at exactly the level needed.

Aaron Cruden's turn will come - just not, according to this selector, on Sunday.