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England and league - noob questions

I like League played it a few times and watch Nottingham outlaws when I get the chance because they play 5 minutes away but it is a sport being left behind in England and it never really managed to expand beyond the M62 corridor although it has supplied many coaches and players to union and not always with a positive effect.
 
I've never been too fussed about it expanding beyond the M62 corridor. My interest has always been in making sure that the sport is ultra competitive in every facet in the core catchment areas - and at the moment, it is anything but.
 
England has also produced some of the best players that the world has ever seen in League. Names like Ellery Hanley, Martin Offiah, Adrian Morley, Sam Burgess, Sean Tompkins, Andy Farrell and Jason Robinson. I'm sure there's others I can't remember but these guys were just really good League players. Sam and Sean still are :)
 
Another reason for this sports unpopularity is that it has been de-skilled to a massive degree.

That's just not accurate at all. By and large - in Aus at least - League players are more skillful than their union counterparts. Have a look at some of the incredible tries the kangaroos scored in the RLWC final last year and tell me it's been "deskilled"
 
That's just not accurate at all. By and large - in Aus at least - League players are more skillful than their union counterparts. Have a look at some of the incredible tries the kangaroos scored in the RLWC final last year and tell me it's been "deskilled"

don't think he means it in the "the players are not skilled" way, i think he means it's become uniformed in it's approach to the game - i don't think anyone can argue that in the core skills (of passing, running lines and tackling) Rugby League is way ahead of Union. (it's also got an extremely underrated kicking game)
 
Rugby league players are obviously less skillful than rugby union players because they have to perform less total skills. This means, however, that they are very good at the few skills they have to perform. Regardless, I don't think this is why rugby league has struggled for popularity. I think it is more a lack of media presence and international game.
 
Rugby league players are obviously less skillful than rugby union players because they have to perform less total skills. This means, however, that they are very good at the few skills they have to perform. Regardless, I don't think this is why rugby league has struggled for popularity. I think it is more a lack of media presence and international game.

In Union positions are more specialised than League, but that's really just the forwards. In the backs there isn't a massive difference in skills though, and generally speaking your half-back in League has to have better kicking skills than his union equivalent.
 
and generally speaking your half-back in League has to have better kicking skills than his union equivalent.

I think you're wrong there.

I think it's a pointless discussion anyway, they are different sports with different requirements, whomever thinks one is exclusivley more skillful than the other is frankly deluded.
 
I think you're wrong there.

I think it's a pointless discussion anyway, they are different sports with different requirements, whomever thinks one is exclusivley more skillful than the other is frankly deluded.

Apples and oranges in a lot of cases, sure, but backs do have some cross over. Although to be fair, half back in union is more like hooker in league.
 
England has also produced some of the best players that the world has ever seen in League. Names like Ellery Hanley, Martin Offiah, Adrian Morley, Sam Burgess, Sean Tompkins, Andy Farrell and Jason Robinson. I'm sure there's others I can't remember but these guys were just really good League players. Sam and Sean still are :)

I take it by Sean Tompkins you actually mean Sam Tomkins.
 
Tomkins has some way to go before being a "greatest ever" as well.
 
I'm probably extremely late when it comes to this but would like to give my thoughts.

I feel the likes of Sky Sports and Rupert Murdoch have made Rugby League very inaccessible to the 'working class fan' because the fans they are trying to attract are not going to pay £50 a month to watch it, one of the reasons Union is extremely popular here is because it is on free to air TV, for example the RWC is on ITV a terrrestrial free to air channel that gets millions of viewers, the RLWC is on ittle bitty Premier Sports, a low grade channel that people have to pay a monthly fee for.

For a sport meant to be the 'working class' form of the game, they're doing a **** poor job in terms of that and Union is doing the better job despite the 'public school boy' image that still lingers about at times.

Rugby Union TV in the UK


Rugby World Cup - Free TV
Six Nations - Free TV
Aviva Premiership Rugby - Free TV weekly highlights show/Pay TV with live games, both free to those with BT Broadband
European Cup - Pay TV with free live games on BBC Radio nationally, Free to those with BT Broadband
Super Rugby - Pay TV with free online highlights and exclusives
Guiness Pro12 - Both free TV and pay TV
Top 14 - Pay TV with free online highlights.

Rugby League in the UK

Rugby League World Cup - Pay TV majority of it, the BBC only broadcasted 7 of the 28 matches.
World Club Series - Pay TV
Super League - Pay TV Exclusively with a highlights show that is only available in northern counties. Have it in the Match of the Day timeslot nationally when they are off for the summer, the little things y'know?
Championship - Pay TV
Challenge Cup - Pay TV majority but the final is free.
NRL - Pay TV (infact the AFL has got a better TV deal with BT Sport/ESPN in the UK)

League fans can ***** about Union stealing the the players like Sam Burgess and so on, but they've got to ask themselves why Union is the big stage. Because some poor business decisions are not making the sport grow. Plus League promotes itself on being 'REAL MEN' or 'HARD MEN' or anything else associated with rough nuts, In schools for example, why would parents want their kids to take part in something where there is more chance of their child getting hurt? Promoting yourselves as 'The Forbidden Game' is the most counter productive thing I've heard of.

#endrant

I do love League though, both NRL and SL but in terms of SL things have got to change.
 
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Rugby Union has been much better at selling itself than League, but historically, especially in England, basically apart from the South West, Union was an establishment sport that has put League down and placed as many impediments as possible in its way (not been played in grammar or private schools; the armed forces; banning even amateur League players from Union). However, after 1995 that argument is redundant. In the 20 years since the two codes went open, Union has gone forward and League has regressed in my opinion. The Union World Cup has been, in my opinion, the catalyst for the growth in interest for the game.
France: Not sure how League has grown. I've worked for three French companies and only two people knew the game existed anymore. The Treizistes had some fine teams in the 50's that went to Australia in 51 and 55 that thrashed the Aussies and regularly beat the Great Britain team. That's now a thing of the past. Compared to Union there's a chasm between acceptance of the two codes as demonstrated by the huge amounts of money that Union gets from TV rights. I was at the Stade de France in 2009 for the French championship final between USAP and Montferrand. There was a full house of 82,000 people there. That would be a pipedream for League. Yes, they have a team in Superleague, but outside of the Catalans, it's a very minor sport in terms of publicity.
England: The schism of 1895 had the two codes going their separate ways. When I was a kid growing up in the 60's I always considered League to be the better code, but I don't anymore. The rules have been dumbed down. The scrum's been emasculated; the limited tackle rule has stopped the ability to apply pressure; consequently we have 13 backs playing the game because the forward skills of requiring props and hookers are no longer required. The heyday for League was the 1950's. The last time we beat the Australians in a home series was 1959, in Australia it was 1970 (due mainly to all time greats such as Malcom Reilly and Roger Millward being absolutely at the top of their game). Zilch since, although the Tours don't exist anymore since League went over to summer rugby in England. Then there was the embarrassment of the World Club Challenge over the weekend when Souths thrashed St Helens 39-0. Superleague's light years behind the NRL in my opinion. I found it embarrassing to watch.
Australia: It's the only place where League is dominant over Union. However, that popularity has meant that the NRL have done very little to expand the game beyond its own 'borders' of Queensland and NSW. They've rested on the success of its domestic competition. Yes, it's very popular in Papua NG and the Pacific Islands, but where else? Also, because of its dominance, the big deal in the NRL is State of Origin because they couldn't get a decent game against the English. To watch the NRL in the UK I have to subscribe to Premier Sports, which is bad marketing of the game by the NRL.
New Zealand: Still way below Union in the public consciousness, but something of a success story in terms of results. For a long time they were the 4th ranked team behind Australia, England and France. Now they are effectively the 2nd best team. That appears to be due to having a team in the NRL (Warriors) and many of its players ply their trade in the NRL as well. It's also gone from being a white man's sport in the 60's to now being almost exclusively Polynesians.
The nub of the argument for me is that League has done just about everything wrong in the last 20 years: rules, marketing, skills, internationals. I still have an emotional pull for the game, but I'm very disillusioned at the way things have turned out. The NRL is still worth watching, but Super League is poor.
 
Rugby League could have sold the last RLWC TV rights to SKY for a tidy sum,but SKY are only interested in Exclusivity and RFL wanted to show the event to the widest possible viewing audience but the BBC only wanted to show the England games and the final and that's it,they were not interested in showing the event in it's entirety and no other broadcaster has ever shown any interest in League except premier sports which shows the NRL, So the best deal the RFL could do was to make the opening England game and the semi finals double headers so the BBC would show two more games and ask Premier sports to make all the rest of the games free to virgin media customers.

The ESL is obviously not as competitive as the NRL but it really isn't that far off as posters above would lead you to believe.
There have been some wonderful ESP grand final winners that have gone on to become World champions even under the current strict salary cap but this Saints team is not a patch on South Sydney , ask any Saints fan if they thought they were good enough to win Super League last year and I doubt even the most rose tinted fan would have given them a cat in hells chance of even making the final.(Leeds and Wigan were the best two sides last year but Leeds burnt themselves out after winning the Challenge cup and Wigan blew it)
England v Australia, England v New Zealand games the last few years have been some of the best games of RL I have ever seen,the Aussies have fallen in love with Internationals again,which is why they now want to expand the WCC.

As for Leagues failings to grow nationally, money, power. influence has always been in the south, when Union is mentioned it's called Rugby like it's the only code, League does not exist in the mainstream media and when I say mainstream I mean topical daily/weekly programmes not dedicated to sport like "THE ONE SHOW" or "THIS WEEK" but they will always link their programmes to what's going on in the sporting world just to stay topical. Hell "THE ONE SHOW" will even do features on sports you've never heard of like woman's Frisbee throwing world championships and village worm charming festival. but RLWC ,Challenge cup finals , Grand Finals nothing, despite most of these events being viewed by millions(even the Aussie grand final was trending in the UK six out of the top ten topics on twitter while I was listening to it on a fcuking Australian internet radio station.
People who run our blue chip company's our politics and media are still mostly privately educated, While Union bosses rub shoulder with chief executives of multi national conglomerates because they wear the same school tie, league still struggles to get appointments with the marketing arm of the local Morrison super store, I can't think of any other sport that is so divided culturally than the two codes of Rugby are.
Did you know back in 1895 all the top international Rugby players and all the top clubs were in the north of England and when they broke away the England national side was so severely weakened that for ten years after Wales kept beating England and being just about the only sport Wales could beat England at the Welsh took the game to heart and it became their national sport, before that Rugby was just another minority sport in Wales.
 

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