England Post-WC discussion

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

He hasn't recovered from that conditioning yet then. Marler seems to have improved a bit and is visibly bigger than his world cup self. This points at Ford / Farrell problems again. You want fast and wide it's Ford and fleet of foot people. Panicking and going back to plan Faz and look what happened. FFS Fiji pasted us up front in the tight.

TBF Fiji pasted most teams up front this World Cup.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

TBF Fiji pasted most teams up front this World Cup.

Everyone's hellbent on stealing one of their backrowers for England, it's not as if they don't make good ones.

 

[j'nuh]

Full backs: Mike Brown (Harlequins), Alex Goode (Saracens)

The only thing that explains Goode is, with Watson and Nowell in the squad, Jones didn't want to use a change on Goode. I hope?

Wings: Chris Ashton (Saracens), Jack Nowell (Exeter), Anthony Watson (Bath), Marland Yarde (Harlequins),

A change was used on Ashton though? Why? Couldn't he have had May in and used an "injury replacement" on Ashton/whoever? I'm hoping that Jones has May/Nowell/Watson penned in as his first choice wingers. No Roko?

Centres: Elliot Daly (Wasps), Ollie Devoto (Bath) (injury replacement for Manu Tuilagi, Leicester), Jonathan Joseph (Bath), Sam Hill (Exeter) (injury replacement for Henry Slade, Exeter)

Out with the old it seems! No complaints on the selections here. Here's hoping a new generation can solve our centre issues. That being said, I am curious as to what Jones wants out of Daly, Devoto and Hill, if he plans to use Farrell at 12 to begin with and Tuilagi later. Also, Farrell at 12 makes me want to cry. It's by far my biggest gripe. I would prefer Barritt, Burrell or Twelvetrees to Farrell at 12.

Fly-halves: Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath)

No complaints here. Cipriani's goal kicking needs to stand up if he's to be selected, because our first team is likely not to have a goalkicker outside of the fly-half. Perhaps an argument could have been made for playing him alongside Slade when he comes back, but I'd prefer Slade to take over as the number one fly-half, hopefully within the next year or so.

Scrum-halves: Danny Care (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester)

No problems with the selections, but only two? One of the most pivotal positions on the field, and we are one injury away from calling up someone outside of the squad? I hope Jones has plans for others to train with the squad.

Props: Dan Cole (Leicester), Paul Hill (Northampton), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Henry Thomas (Bath) (injury replacement for Kieran Brookes, Northampton), Mako Vunipola (Saracens)

All the important props are there.

Hookers: Luke Cowan Dickie (Exeter), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley

Meh to Hartley. George has to start. LCD a perfect impact sub.

Locks: Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton)

Like.

Flankers: Jack Clifford (Harlequins), James Haskell (Wasps), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester) (injury replacement for Dave Ewers, Exeter)

That Kvesic isn't in the original squad just baffles me. Not only best in his position, but amongst the top players in the country in any position. Top 3 at least. Has been good-to-great in every game for the last two years for Glos. MOTM more times than can be counted. Clifford getting in ahead (which seems to indicate that Clifford will start at 7) worries me. No Fraser either. Very disappointed with Jones here.

8s: Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Josh Beaumont (Sale)

Not unhappy that Beaumont's there, but disappointed that Morgan is missing out, especially since a change will have been used to remove him it seems, since he isn't using an injury replacement. I think we could have afforded to have three 8s, swapping Goode out for Beaumont instead of Morgan.

All in all, not too bad.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

8s: Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Josh Beaumont (Sale)

No Morgan?

I was thinking about that, but maybe Jones just doesn't trust his work ethic?
Every man and his dog knows that Morgan will be **** for Glaws but good for England - maybe Jones doesn't want to take that gamble?
I always saw Morgan as sort of halfway between your bosh 8s (Binny) and your dynamic 8s (Minty) - We've already got Binny there, and Beaumont is more dynamic than Morgan and also one of the best lineout operators in the EPS. Josh also covers lock, so if he's on the bench it just adds a bit more, as opposed to have a straight up 8 switch (especially as all of our locks have been blindsides at one point or another, so can cover there).

 

[j'nuh]

I suppose that Beaumont as a lineout option from 8 means we can have Ewers at 6. Gives us options.

Morgan not being great for Glos is a bit outdated now though. Every time he has a relatively quiet game, everyone brings that up, so I think it gets perpetuated a bit. A bit like how people kept saying he was overweight, years after he became lean. He was rushed back from injury for England last time out, and has quietly been getting his confidence back since. Put in some good performances just before his most recent injury.

Read a good point on Shedweb that perhaps Jones wants Morgan to get over his injury issues with Glos instead of pulling him in and out of the international environment. The best thing for Morgan would be to return successfully from his most recent injury and further build up his confidence; he shouldn't be focusing intensely on the fitness requirements of international rugby. Arguably that was what caused problems for him during the WC.

 

[Geordie]

Full backs: Mike Brown (Harlequins), Alex Goode (Saracens)

The only thing that explains Goode is, with Watson and Nowell in the squad, Jones didn't want to use a change on Goode. I hope?

Wings: Chris Ashton (Saracens), Jack Nowell (Exeter), Anthony Watson (Bath), Marland Yarde (Harlequins),

A change was used on Ashton though? Why? Couldn't he have had May in and used an "injury replacement" on Ashton/whoever? I'm hoping that Jones has May/Nowell/Watson penned in as his first choice wingers. No Roko?

Centres: Elliot Daly (Wasps), Ollie Devoto (Bath) (injury replacement for Manu Tuilagi, Leicester), Jonathan Joseph (Bath), Sam Hill (Exeter) (injury replacement for Henry Slade, Exeter)

Out with the old it seems! No complaints on the selections here. Here's hoping a new generation can solve our centre issues. That being said, I am curious as to what Jones wants out of Daly, Devoto and Hill, if he plans to use Farrell at 12 to begin with and Tuilagi later. Also, Farrell at 12 makes me want to cry. It's by far my biggest gripe. I would prefer Barritt, Burrell or Twelvetrees to Farrell at 12.

Fly-halves: Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath)

No complaints here. Cipriani's goal kicking needs to stand up if he's to be selected, because our first team is likely not to have a goalkicker outside of the fly-half. Perhaps an argument could have been made for playing him alongside Slade when he comes back, but I'd prefer Slade to take over as the number one fly-half, hopefully within the next year or so.

Scrum-halves: Danny Care (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester)

No problems with the selections, but only two? One of the most pivotal positions on the field, and we are one injury away from calling up someone outside of the squad? I hope Jones has plans for others to train with the squad.

Props: Dan Cole (Leicester), Paul Hill (Northampton), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Henry Thomas (Bath) (injury replacement for Kieran Brookes, Northampton), Mako Vunipola (Saracens)

All the important props are there.

Hookers: Luke Cowan Dickie (Exeter), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley

Meh to Hartley. George has to start. LCD a perfect impact sub.

Locks: Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton)

Like.

Flankers: Jack Clifford (Harlequins), James Haskell (Wasps), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester) (injury replacement for Dave Ewers, Exeter)

That Kvesic isn't in the original squad just baffles me. Not only best in his position, but amongst the top players in the country in any position. Top 3 at least. Has been good-to-great in every game for the last two years for Glos. MOTM more times than can be counted. Clifford getting in ahead (which seems to indicate that Clifford will start at 7) worries me. No Fraser either. Very disappointed with Jones here.

8s: Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Josh Beaumont (Sale)

Not unhappy that Beaumont's there, but disappointed that Morgan is missing out, especially since a change will have been used to remove him it seems, since he isn't using an injury replacement. I think we could have afforded to have three 8s, swapping Goode out for Beaumont instead of Morgan.

All in all, not too bad.

I wouldn't worry about Kvesic being a "injury replacement " . I think its more a case of Eddie using the rules as best he can.

I ceetainly wouldn't expect Kvesic to be out the squad if Ewers became fit. And Eddie has said there HAS to be a specialist 7...of which Kvesic is the only one.

PS I'm chuffed Ewers was named in the squad aswell.

 

[j'nuh]

I wouldn't worry about Kvesic being a "injury replacement " . I think its more a case of Eddie using the rules as best he can.

I ceetainly wouldn't expect Kvesic to be out the squad if Ewers became fit. And Eddie has said there HAS to be a specialist 7...of which Kvesic is the only one.

PS I'm chuffed Ewers was named in the squad aswell.

True, but if Kvesic is so important to Eddie, why is it that Clifford has a permanent switch into the squad, and Kvesic is only a stand-in for Ewers? You would think it was the other way round. Also, Fraser missing out for Clifford is another big call; it seems to suggest that Clifford is being seen as a 7.

Clifford's versatility does make him a great option at 20 though.

 

[j'nuh]

Some interesting words from the Telegraph.

• Jones has been consulting with George Smith for his 7 options.
• Smith has been doing sessions with Haskell at the club. Jones wants to get Smith more involved with England.
• Haskell likely to start at 7 against Scotland but is seen as having a "short-term role" at 7.
• Clifford also likely to appear for a bit at 7, but is seen as an 8 in the long-term.
• "A seven’s primary job is to ensure that on your ball you get quick ball on that first ruck. On the opposition’s ball, they have to slow it down. Then the really good sevens like Pocock, McCaw, Smith and Kane see other opportunities to slow ball down."
• England not to have any more 6.5s. Robshaw been playing "brilliantly" at 6.
• The longer-term target is to develop "real number sevens"
• Sam Underhill likely to come into contention if he moves back to England.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...w-at-openside-flanker-for-England-opener.html

I don't know if Jones is a WUM or what. Describes Kvesic as his perfect 7, talks about playing people who he admits aren't what he sees as 7s in the role and wants to develop younger players to basically be Kvesic.

WHY DO YOU HATE GLOUCESTER JONES

 

[TRF_Olyy]

• Jones has been consulting with George Smith for his 7 options.

Explains no Seymour - he completely embarrassed all of Smith's Wasps team mates at the breakdown the other week
Smith's a great player, though - can think of worse guys to consult.

• Haskell likely to start at 7 against Scotland but is seen as having a "short-term role" at 7.

WHY?!
Haskell is a 6 who can cover 8 or 7. Putting him at 7 when you have ONE OF THE BEST 7s IN EUROPE in your squad just makes no sense.

• Clifford also likely to appear for a bit at 7, but is seen as an 8 in the long-term.

Don't put him at 7, he ain't one.
I've said it before but I think Clifford should be a 6 going forward, I think he can perfect the Croft 6 (i.e. stupidly good with ball in hand, but not shy away from the rough stuff, good in the lineout to round it out).

• England not to have any more 6.5s. Robshaw been playing "brilliantly" at 6.

Good, I despise 6.5s.

• Sam Underhill likely to come into contention if he moves back to England.

Good?
Not seen him play, but from what I've heard (from English and Welsh fans) he's a real talent but looks more suited to 6 (or "6.5") going forwards.

I don't know if Jones is a WUM or what. Describes Kvesic as his perfect 7, talks about playing people who he admits aren't what he sees as 7s in the role and wants to develop younger players to basically be Kvesic.

WHY DO YOU HATE GLOUCESTER JONES

It's a joke, isn't it?
Now you now how I've felt RE: Seymour for the past 5 or so years.
Clearly the best option, doesn't get a look in for some un-disclosed reason.

 

[nickdnz]

Keep in mind I think Eddie Jones played with all 6/8s in his team. Michael Broadhurst was the 7 vs South Africa, and the guy is 1.96m and 110kgs. He has plenty of nice things to say about McCaw, Pocock and "Kane" (quality Telegraph...), but I'm not so sure an out and out 7 will actually be in his game plan.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Keep in mind I think Eddie Jones played with all 6/8s in his team. Michael Broadhurst was the 7 vs South Africa, and the guy is 1.96m and 110kgs. He has plenty of nice things to say about McCaw, Pocock and "Kane" (quality Telegraph...), but I'm not so sure an out and out 7 will actually be in his game plan.

We've not even had one 23 under Jones yet, please don't take away the hope.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I don't know if Jones is a WUM or what. Describes Kvesic as his perfect 7, talks about playing people who he admits aren't what he sees as 7s in the role and wants to develop younger players to basically be Kvesic.

WHY DO YOU HATE GLOUCESTER JONES

It's like the boyfriend thing:
"I wish I could find someone who was like you to be my boyfriend."
"I'M like me!"

 

[Peat]

Some interesting words from the Telegraph.

• Jones has been consulting with George Smith for his 7 options.
• Smith has been doing sessions with Haskell at the club. Jones wants to get Smith more involved with England.
• Haskell likely to start at 7 against Scotland but is seen as having a "short-term role" at 7.
• Clifford also likely to appear for a bit at 7, but is seen as an 8 in the long-term.
• "A seven's primary job is to ensure that on your ball you get quick ball on that first ruck. On the opposition's ball, they have to slow it down. Then the really good sevens like Pocock, McCaw, Smith and Kane see other opportunities to slow ball down."
• England not to have any more 6.5s. Robshaw been playing "brilliantly" at 6.
• The longer-term target is to develop "real number sevens"
• Sam Underhill likely to come into contention if he moves back to England.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...w-at-openside-flanker-for-England-opener.html

I don't know if Jones is a WUM or what. Describes Kvesic as his perfect 7, talks about playing people who he admits aren't what he sees as 7s in the role and wants to develop younger players to basically be Kvesic.

WHY DO YOU HATE GLOUCESTER JONES

What I am hearing here is he doesn't trust Kvesic to clear out that first ruck well enough. I'm reading between the lines here, but that's the only thing that makes sense to me. Not sure if that's fair but all the other options being mentioned in front of him are more physical than him. Or, that old classic... too small.

I really really want to see this proven one way or another though.

Haskell gives me the heebie-jeebies because, maybe I'm out of date here, he's always struck me as a player who I don't trust to make decisions. At openside? Hrm.

Not sure he's got the pace for it anymore either. Robshaw-Haskell-Vunipola sounds an awful lot like Haskell-Robshaw-Vunipola and I think we've seen that. Was alright. Not sure I'm going to be too excited by it though.

Clifford at 8 causes a giant traffic jam which maybe bodes well for Ewers and no one else.

edit: Also, not sure I trust anything that isn't a direct quote there - this may be complete balls.

 

[Yoshimitsu]

What I am hearing here is he doesn't trust Kvesic to clear out that first ruck well enough. I'm reading between the lines here, but that's the only thing that makes sense to me. Not sure if that's fair but all the other options being mentioned in front of him are more physical than him. Or, that old classic... too small.

I really really want to see this proven one way or another though.

Haskell gives me the heebie-jeebies because, maybe I'm out of date here, he's always struck me as a player who I don't trust to make decisions. At openside? Hrm.

Not sure he's got the pace for it anymore either. Robshaw-Haskell-Vunipola sounds an awful lot like Haskell-Robshaw-Vunipola and I think we've seen that. Was alright. Not sure I'm going to be too excited by it though.

Clifford at 8 causes a giant traffic jam which maybe bodes well for Ewers and no one else.

edit: Also, not sure I trust anything that isn't a direct quote there - this may be complete balls.

Haskell at 7? That must be a WUM. He's now so musclebound he can barely move. Imagining the empty breakdown as Jameszilla lumbers over to contest gives me the fear. That's clearly a worse option than Robshaw ffs.

 

[Isengard]

Lots of really sensible points being made!

Farrell is a superb kicker and tackler but for me not an international 10. His vision and passing doesn't produce fluidity and encourages plodding rugby. Using him at 12 seems bizarre. One of the key issues I had with Lancaster was that he tried to shoehorn players in because they ticked some boxes rather than playing guys in their actual position. Surely Devoto can play 12?

Centre is still a major worry for me. It was the area that destroyed Lancaster and I'm not sure that we have a good combination there yet. Slade was a massive loss. We need to avoid a roadblock at 12 who either can't pick a pass quickly or is a heads down merchant. Thank goodness Barrit is gone though, never close to an international 12 for me.


Cipriani I think is unlucky. He has always been viewed as a loose cannon and England coaches don't know how to use him. I think he's a really useful impact player who can make things happen, something England really lack. It's also bad news for Sale as he will likely take the French shilling if he's not getting into the English squad.

Ashton, for me, is a flat track bully. He thrives in a powerful team where big men break up play and create spaces. In such a team he doesn't need to tackle so much. He doesn't make his own opportunities for me.

 

[Peat]

Lots of really sensible points being made!

Farrell is a superb kicker and tackler but for me not an international 10. His vision and passing doesn't produce fluidity and encourages plodding rugby. Using him at 12 seems bizarre. One of the key issues I had with Lancaster was that he tried to shoehorn players in because they ticked some boxes rather than playing guys in their actual position. Surely Devoto can play 12?

Centre is still a major worry for me. It was the area that destroyed Lancaster and I'm not sure that we have a good combination there yet. Slade was a massive loss. We need to avoid a roadblock at 12 who either can't pick a pass quickly or is a heads down merchant. Thank goodness Barrit is gone though, never close to an international 12 for me.

Unless you're referring to Slade solely as a 13, it's one or the other there

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

So according to most of you "experts" on here kvesic is the only 7 in the whole world and no one else could play 7, especially not Clifford who might be better at rucking isn't seen as a genuine 7????

Really

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

So according to most of you "experts" on here kvesic is the only 7 in the whole world and no one else could play 7, especially not Clifford who might be better at rucking isn't seen as a genuine 7????

Really

Kvesic is better at turning over ball.

No one is saying he is the best 7 in the world but he has potential.

 

[Peat]

So according to most of you "experts" on here kvesic is the only 7 in the whole world and no one else could play 7, especially not Clifford who might be better at rucking isn't seen as a genuine 7????

Really

He's the only guy playing 7 regularly in the squad.

He is also far and away the best jackal in the squad and some people seem to think of that and that only when considering the openside shirt.

It is certainly puzzling when a coach talks up the need for out and out 7s and their sight slides right over Kvesic. I'm not sure he's the right option, but he is the only out and out 7 in the squad. Clifford has not played there enough to develop the instincts, Haskell's too dumb.

 

[j'nuh]

So according to most of you "experts" on here kvesic is the only 7 in the whole world and no one else could play 7, especially not Clifford who might be better at rucking isn't seen as a genuine 7????

Really

Kvesic would be my favourite, but I'd be okay with Fraser too.