England Rugby 2018/19 Thread

[Ragey Erasmus]

Much as I like Baxter, he can't coach England like he does Chiefs, they are just found wanting at the very highest level a bit too frequently and have an over-reliance on forwards dominance. I think he can develop the right squad mentality but would need good backs and attack coaches the fill out the areas of weakness he has. If England play like Chiefs, international teams will shut them down more convincingly than European teams are able to shut down the Chiefs.

Sarries have a much more all-round game.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

McCall to Ireland IF Schmidt leaves after the world cup....

Doubt it, I reckon the IRFU would hire from within again.

McCall for England, Lancaster for Ireland. Nobody can ever win without a snide comment!

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Much as I like Baxter, he can't coach England like he does Chiefs, they are just found wanting at the very highest level a bit too frequently and have an over-reliance on forwards dominance. I think he can develop the right squad mentality but would need good backs and attack coaches the fill out the areas of weakness he has. If England play like Chiefs, international teams will shut them down more convincingly than European teams are able to shut down the Chiefs.

Sarries have a much more all-round game.

Plus Chiefs are all Baxter has known as man and boy. Love the loyalty and club legend bit, but it's absolutely no preparation for the international game.

McCall's very impressive, but surely Richards has now served his time on the naughty step.

 

[Which Tyler]

Plus Chiefs are all Baxter has known as man and boy. Love the loyalty and club legend bit, but it's absolutely no preparation for the international game.

McCall's very impressive, but surely Richards has now served his time on the naughty step.

Agreed with all of that.
The question on Deano's though, isn't if the RFU could look past his... incident; it's whether he's forgiven the RFU for it.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Doubt it, I reckon the IRFU would hire from within again.

McCall for England, Lancaster for Ireland. Nobody can ever win without a snide comment!

I reckon Farrell will get the head coach role before Lancaster,

 

[Mumbles119]

Plus Chiefs are all Baxter has known as man and boy. Love the loyalty and club legend bit, but it's absolutely no preparation for the international game.

McCall's very impressive, but surely Richards has now served his time on the naughty step.

I know it may just be the right thing for him to say, but in a BTSport interview Deano emphatically said he would not want to coach England. Sounded very genuine.

From a personal view, maybe there is more you can do and control as a club coach which makes it more appealing.
Plus the media pressure, restricted time with players, fragmented squads etc must make the England job seem not as appealing.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Deano is more likely to be the next Tigers DOR than the next England head coach....

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I know it may just be the right thing for him to say, but in a BTSport interview Deano emphatically said he would not want to coach England. Sounded very genuine.

From a personal view, maybe there is more you can do and control as a club coach which makes it more appealing.
Plus the media pressure, restricted time with players, fragmented squads etc must make the England job seem not as appealing.

He may well have been genuine and he's renowned for ploughing his own furrow, but TBH I don't believe a word anyone says in public about their ambitions. He probably had to take a step back (sorry Falcons) after bloodgate, but having scaled the heights as a player and won Premierships and Heinekens as Leicester coach it feels odd that he would be happy to let his career peter out at a relative backwater with small crowds.

Club and country coaching are different beasts, but he's been at Falcons for 7 years already and will be 56 by the end of the RWC. He might just fancy less of the daily grind by then and the tIming might align should there be a vacancy.

 

[Mumbles119]

He may well have been genuine and he's renowned for ploughing his own furrow, but TBH I don't believe a word anyone says in public about their ambitions. He probably had to take a step back (sorry Falcons) after bloodgate, but having scaled the heights as a player and won Premierships and Heinekens as Leicester coach it feels odd that he would be happy to let his career peter out at a relative backwater with small crowds.

Club and country coaching are different beasts, but he's been at Falcons for 7 years already and will be 56 by the end of the RWC. He might just fancy less of the daily grind by then and the tIming might align should there be a vacancy.

That makes sense too. As you say age and motivation might align for Deano to be a contender.

This means we might see the general call being for Baxter, but agree the contenders should be McCall or Deano. But then the RFU forgo any reasoning and diligence to appoint Mallinder instead.

 

[Reiser99]

That makes sense too. As you say age and motivation might align for Deano to be a contender.

This means we might see the general call being for Baxter, but agree the contenders should be McCall or Deano. But then the RFU forgo any reasoning and diligence to appoint Mallinder instead.

The real surprise is when you realise they mistakenly appointed Harry instead of Jim.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The real surprise is when you realise they mistakenly appointed Harry instead of Jim.

I can just imagine Harry Mallinders reaction being completely unchanged with that dazed look on his face like he doesn't know where he is.

 

[Scotty]

Baxter for england is abit of a mixed bag, hes young enough to go out and get more experience outside the uk so he doesnt blow his chance for england. But hes a very good coach and if he gets it he needs to be surrounded by the right people amd find a new game plan. Keep ball wont work at international level. Like alot of england players have proved though age and experience isnt everything, if your ready your ready

 

[TRF_Olyy]

All the posts on social media about Wade make it sound like he died.

Rightly or wrongly multiple coaches have decided he's not right for international.
And it's not like we've got a bunch of jobbers in front of him, British and Irish Lion Watson, British and Irish Lion Elliot Daly, British and Irish Lion Jack Nowell.
Plenty of potentially world class players will miss out on the opportunity to play internationally, it's not some giant travesty.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

All the posts on social media about Wade make it sound like he died.

Rightly or wrongly multiple coaches have decided he's not right for international.
And it's not like we've got a bunch of jobbers in front of him, British and Irish Lion Watson, British and Irish Lion Elliot Daly, British and Irish Lion Jack Nowell.
Plenty of potentially world class players will miss out on the opportunity to play internationally, it's not some giant travesty.

He's like Cipriani, the highlight reel honey that a casual viewer would look at and would be convinced is the best in the country.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

All the posts on social media about Wade make it sound like he died.

Rightly or wrongly multiple coaches have decided he's not right for international.
And it's not like we've got a bunch of jobbers in front of him, British and Irish Lion Watson, British and Irish Lion Elliot Daly, British and Irish Lion Jack Nowell.
Plenty of potentially world class players will miss out on the opportunity to play internationally, it's not some giant travesty.

Yeah agreed. Although at club level he could do things others couldn't and a unique talent is always worth a look internationally even if there are reservations about certain aspects of their game. There are plenty of people who are big and fast in a straight line but not many who can beat 3 tacklers in a telephone box. Always wondered if there was a bit of no d*ckheads around, remember Goode publicly calling him out over some charity bash.

We've always been suspicious of flamboyant talent in this country. Faz for 10!

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

He's like Cipriani, the highlight reel honey that a casual viewer would look at and would be convinced is the best in the country.

I think this is true. That being said, England do have a particularly poor record of not giving opportunities to our more enigmatic talents - Wade, Cipriani, S Armitage, Geraghty, Simpson-Daniel, Abendanon, Simpson/Robson, Varndell.

I'm not saying they would all have panned out, but you have to imagine that other leading nations wouldn't have left their fans wondering what if. It's easy to imagine that the likes of James O'Connor, Quade Cooper, Shane Williams, Beauden Barrett, Damien McKenzie etc. might have been sat on single digit caps or discarded all together had they been born in our fair country.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I think this is true. That being said, England do have a particularly poor record of not giving opportunities to our more enigmatic talents - Wade, Cipriani, S Armitage, Geraghty, Simpson-Daniel, Abendanon, Simpson/Robson, Varndell.

I'm not saying they would all have panned out, but you have to imagine that other leading nations wouldn't have left their fans wondering what if. It's easy to imagine that the likes of James O'Connor, Quade Cooper, Shane Williams, Beauden Barrett, Damien McKenzie etc. might have been sat on single digit caps or discarded all together had they been born in our fair country.

True but as the Celts like to point out, we are a bigger country with more clubs and players to choose from. We have a greater change of having talent that just doesn't get selected. The players we now slag off were all pretty decent at one point. Haskell, Wood and Robshaw, all now deemed average at best were all hailed when younger.

 

[MikeTheNative]

Every nation is/has been the same, picking the 'tried and tested' over the young up coming talent. You have Lydiate,/Roberts for Wales, Rob Kearney for Ireland, Mumm for Aus etc. Yes Wade should have got a chance but again it's the same for other countries, where players seem to be in great regional/club form but never got a chance.

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

True but as the Celts like to point out, we are a bigger country with more clubs and players to choose from. We have a greater change of having talent that just doesn't get selected. The players we now slag off were all pretty decent at one point. Haskell, Wood and Robshaw, all now deemed average at best were all hailed when younger.

Fair point on both, however we do seem to have a greater preference for the solid/consistent/humble English stereotype (the three players you mention fit that mold, albeit Haskell gets a pass on the last one...). I don't think it's rugby specific - looking at other sports we do tend to find flair and excessive confidence somewhat vulgar. We also seem to have an aversion to players or playing styles that are particularly non-conformist. As you point out, the playing resources available will always mean we have more "almost made its", and maybe with the addition of apprenticeships for players like Mercer and Smith, we will see fewer "special" talents missed in future. Unfortunately, part of me thinks that "apprenticeship" is just code for "squashing-the-individuality-and-flair-out-of-your-game-so-you-don't-end-up-like-danny-ship".

 

[Chief Pete]

Regarding Wade, I think Ugo Monye made a great point when he said players get judged on what they can't do rather than what they can do, personally for me I'd say English rugby and football has been culpable of disregarding and judging talent based on weakness rather than the qualities the player brings to the team for a number of years...