England Rugby 2020/21 Thread

[TRF_Olyy]

Realised he's a unit but cant throw?

Don't know what you mean, he's the best hooker of this generation

 

[Scotty]

Don't know what you mean, he's the best hooker of this generation

Youll be eating your words when because the youngest ever England captain!....at hooker!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Youll be eating your words when because the youngest ever England captain!....at hooker!

He's got until April 4, 2023 if he wants to beat Carling's record
Not unreasonable - there's a fair few international periods in that space

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Do you think Binny played every second of this international series because he's notoriously lazy away from the game and there's a very good chance Saracens aren't playing this season?

I find it hard to believe Earl's international future is at 7 when there's Curry/Underhill/Willis knocking about, but he could easily be 2nd choice 8

 

[EdBirch]

How many changes can EJ make from one EPS to the next? Is it a case of he can clear out or is he restricted in some way to how much he can change?

 

[Which Tyler]

How many changes can EJ make from one EPS to the next? Is it a case of he can clear out or is he restricted in some way to how much he can change?

As much as he likes year-on-year
But he's limited to the number changes he can make within the year.
We knew what the limits were for Jonno and Burt, but with Eddie it seems to be a little different

 

[Jashay]

I was thinking about England's misfiring backs during this Autumn Nations Cup; whereas our pack has seen a fair bit of churn over the time of Eddie's tenure, it felt like we were just rolling out the old guard in the back. I was struggling to think of any backs that were first capped under Eddie who were regular picks, so I went and did a bit of digging.

Turns out Elliot Daly (47 caps) was first capped under Eddie, but in terms of caps the rest of Eddie's top 5 are Te'o (16), Heinz (13), Big Joe (9) and Francis (8). To put than into context, Will Stuart and Ben Earl both made their debuts this year and would make it on to that list with 8 apiece.

And as a contrast, 5 of our starting pack were capped under Eddie: Genge, Sinckler, Itoje, Curry, Underhill.

My immediate reaction was that Eddie had clearly put no effort in to the backs, but if you think about it did he really need to when he started? Daly notwithstanding the backs we started yesterday were all in the 2015 World Cup Squad. It probably felt like it didn't need as much work.

Our pack wasn't as good. He inherited a core of good, young locks, but by and large our pack was much sketchier, especially the back row. Perhaps it needed more work, and as such more players got looked at; a quick wikipedia jaunt says that EJ capped 29 forwards compared to 17 backs. Before this year he'd capped 12 back rowers against 13 backs.

But it looks like that might be changing; since the start of 2019 he's capped 8 backs compared to 7 forwards. He's capped some Full Backs for the first time. FH is still uncharted territory, and SH appears to be snagged on Ben Youngs, but Eddie is definitely looking more at the backs now than when he started.

Early days yet, but I reckon this World Cup cycle might see a relatively stable pack and more experiments in the backs

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Well for the billionth time, changes in the backs are fine only if they include 9 and 10. Any changes that do not include options in those positions is little more than frivolous tinkering really.

 

[EdBirch]

Back line i'd like to see in the future
9. Spencer
10. Simmonds
11. May
12. Redpath / Farrell
13. Lawrence
14. Thorley
15. Malins

I know that we now have a lot of caps in the back line atm but I feel that this line up would play better attacking rugby and still have the defensive capabilities required att

 

[ncurd]

Nope no Farrell shown nothing of worth in some time now. Need to give people like Slade a chance to play 12 outside someone other than him. And honestly Ford needs to be given a chance at international level without Farrell a crutch (hinderence in current form).


It's not going to happen much like Youngs he isn't going without injury and that's part of the problem as everything going wrong in the backs is teaming from their areas.

 

[Scotty]

Back line i'd like to see in the future
9. Spencer
10. Simmonds
11. May
12. Redpath / Farrell
13. Lawrence
14. Thorley
15. Malins

I know that we now have a lot of caps in the back line atm but I feel that this line up would play better attacking rugby and still have the defensive capabilities required att

Thats not a bad back line but no.
Robson speeds up the game i would have him above Spencer.
Simmonds deserves a shot after a good season but ford is more attacking FH.
12 is always an issue but is redpath anywhere near ready?
Lawrence has huge potential but hasnt set the world on fire. When he's played.
Id still say Watson is well ahead of thorley even though i rate him highly.
Daly vs Malins, malins needs a good season and can push for 15.

So i dont really agree with your team. Our issues atm stem from an undercoached attack and to systembased that wont deviate if its not working

 

[EdBirch]

Thats not a bad back line but no.
Robson speeds up the game i would have him above Spencer.
Simmonds deserves a shot after a good season but ford is more attacking FH.
12 is always an issue but is redpath anywhere near ready?
Lawrence has huge potential but hasnt set the world on fire. When he's played.
Id still say Watson is well ahead of thorley even though i rate him highly.
Daly vs Malins, malins needs a good season and can push for 15.

So i dont really agree with your team. Our issues atm stem from an undercoached attack and to systembased that wont deviate if its not working

I did say in the future, not right now i accept i didn't make it time specific

 

[TRF_Olyy]

12 is always an issue but is redpath anywhere near ready?

Not watched Bath this season but post-lockdown he definitely looked it,
He was pretty comfortably the best EQP 12 (though that's not really saying much as I struggle to think of any other EQP 12 that was starting)

I think Lawrence definitely showed enough to warrant a start next game - showed much more than Slade (though playing outside Slade is easier than playing outside Farrell).
Won't happen but I'd go into the 6N with a Ford/Slade/Lawrence 10/12/13, with Slade and Lawrence playing "centre" rather than dedicated 12/13 (think that's what they were doing before, anyway).

 

[Jashay]

Well for the billionth time, changes in the backs are fine only if they include 9 and 10. Any changes that do not include options in those positions is little more than frivolous tinkering really.

I'm not actually super worried about Scrum Half at the moment. Robson was first capped in 2019 when Care fell out of favour, and I think it's sheer bad luck that he didn't get picked for the WC (freak injury of spontaneous blood clots in the lungs). If he'd gotten all of Heinz's caps he'd be on 20 now and we'd be thinking of him as a regular. As it is I think he's likely to keep his spot and he's just light on caps.

Admittedly unsure of who comes after that, but I'll wait and see if he caps another Scrum Half (and keeps Robson) in the 6N before I worry too much.

Fly Half is probably low priority when you have two long-term internationals in the squad. Ford will only be 30 come the next WC and Faz at 32 isn't crazy. Sure I'd like to have a look at some options there, but I wouldn't be surprised if Eddie doesn't look too hard.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

The half backs are either low priority or huge priority. If Youngs, Ford and Faz have been told to unthinkingly follow instructions then its Jones who should be squarely in the firing line.

If the players have been given licence then their performances have been shocking and fresh blood needs a proper look at.

I value experience but there is also a tipping point. Everyone can have an off day, but these 3 have over 260 caps between them and that sort of experience should be delivering 7 out of 10 in 90% of games. And the coach should be trusting them, not instructing them.

I like Robson and he will speed things up a bit. But if we're looking to the next RWC he'll be mid way been his 31st and 32nd birthdays and may have lost a little zip.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Couple of articles from today's Grauniad.

One I agree with as much as the other disheartens.

England keep on winning but Eddie Jones needs to let the genie out of the bottle | Robert Kitson

There are plenty of reasons why the rugby was not dazzling, but even while securing two trophies the lack of vision is alarming

www.theguardian.com

England's George Ford: 'Kicking is part of giving us best chance to win'

George Ford has defended England’s reliance on kicking by saying it helps them win games

www.theguardian.com

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Couple of articles from today's Grauniad.

One I agree with as much as the other disheartens.

England keep on winning but Eddie Jones needs to let the genie out of the bottle | Robert Kitson

There are plenty of reasons why the rugby was not dazzling, but even while securing two trophies the lack of vision is alarming

www.theguardian.com

England's George Ford: 'Kicking is part of giving us best chance to win'

George Ford has defended England’s reliance on kicking by saying it helps them win games

www.theguardian.com

I think quite a few in rugby are detached from reality when they so readily dismiss the criticism of tactics being boring. The sport is only where it is because of people watching. If the dominant teams play an uninspiring, dull for of rugby, the sport dies. Rugby has enough of a problem trying to grow beyond the core countries as it is, making it worse by being fundamentally boring to watch is only going to make things worse. I understand teams are there to win but it's got to be mixed up a bit. I'm not even sure our constant kicking is even as successful as they want to make out. When we are under pressure to actually do something ball in hand, invariably we do. By all means be pragmatic in your own half or if you have bogged down but kicking after 2 or 3 phases at all times is just awful to watch. England are a side being run by statistics, pre-planned tactics and pre-planned strike moves. Creativity on the pitch seems to be completely gone, we go through the same motions regardless of whether there are better options available at any moment in time. I wouldn't be surprised if teams could get away with dropping another player back to making the constant kicking virtually impossible knowing we will make absolutely no attempt to go around the defence.

 

[BPM]

Maybe it's all a cunning ploy ... we kick ad nauseum until teams expect it and drop 2 or 3 back to cover the kicks and then we surprise them by not kicking and using the extra space created.

Joking aside, I very much doubt that is the plan although I think it would probably work.

 

[klitarris]

I think quite a few in rugby are detached from reality when they so readily dismiss the criticism of tactics being boring. The sport is only where it is because of people watching. If the dominant teams play an uninspiring, dull for of rugby, the sport dies. Rugby has enough of a problem trying to grow beyond the core countries as it is, making it worse by being fundamentally boring to watch is only going to make things worse. I understand teams are there to win but it's got to be mixed up a bit. I'm not even sure our constant kicking is even as successful as they want to make out. When we are under pressure to actually do something ball in hand, invariably we do. By all means be pragmatic in your own half or if you have bogged down but kicking after 2 or 3 phases at all times is just awful to watch. England are a side being run by statistics, pre-planned tactics and pre-planned strike moves. Creativity on the pitch seems to be completely gone, we go through the same motions regardless of whether there are better options available at any moment in time. I wouldn't be surprised if teams could get away with dropping another player back to making the constant kicking virtually impossible knowing we will make absolutely no attempt to go around the defence.

Unfortunately with the way the rules are, and are being officiated by the referees, it is safer to be without the ball a lot of the time. All the teams have been doing a lot of kicking this autumn (NH ones anyway, I haven't seen anything of the RC), although clearly England have taken it to the absolute extreme. As you say, they were clearly being run by statistics and pre-planned tactics. However, my opinion is that this has been the sole focus of Jones this year - to make sure that England are never going to get bullied again in the way they were against South Africa in the WC final. Obviously time will tell in that regard until we do play South Africa again. Personally I think we'll see a more balanced game plan in the six nations - the new attack coach will have had time to bed in by then as well. Also, i do wonder whether Jones didn't want to show his attacking hand in a tournament that didn't really mean much (and let's face it, they managed to win with those tactics), with the 6N - a tournament that means a lot - following very shortly afterwards. This way, opposition coaches will have a lot of information about our defence and can plan how to break it down (which will not be easy), but literally nothing about our attack.

Time will tell though! Of course, I may well be wrong and if I am and we do see the same from England in the 6N I will be very disappointed and will eat my words!

 

[Ferrari333SP]