• Help Support The Rugby Forum :

England vs New Zealand - 15/11/2025

All very true. Apart from SA are on a different level to everyone else. That's the bench mark. Everyone from 2-5 are in a dog fight vs each other and planning for the RWC.

I honestly think those 9 games are doing a lot of heavy lifting. One win vs top 5. Away in Argentina is a very good test result granted and a one point win over France.

If we consistently beat SA, Ireland, France, the AB's then I'll start believing we are feared.
Agree. SA are a level above. Going to need another level up to topple them, but this is that next step on the ladder. Take it and we start to look like the real deal. Fail, and the momentum loss could be significant. Beating the Argentinians won’t count for much.
 
I honestly think those 9 games are doing a lot of heavy lifting. One win vs top 5. Away in Argentina is a very good test result granted and a one point win over France.

If we consistently beat SA, Ireland, France, the AB's then I'll start believing we are feared.

Yep, the Sco and Fra games was luck turning but could've / should’ve been defeats. We’re just better than Wal, Ita and the US, but who isn’t?

Arg was very good but they’re erratic at the best of times and we had a weakened team. Very impressive, but hard to read much into it.

Aus was fairly emphatic but cards stacked against them from tiredness and availability.

Fiji wasn’t great until the Pom Squad rocked up. We should always have more strength in depth than T2 countries.

So I think the ABs and hopefully a full bore match vs Arg will give us more of an idea where we really are.
 
A close, annoying loss to New Zealand has certainly become an English trait over the last 10-12 years. The ABs' last 5 wins against us have been by 3,1,1,7 and 2 points. To be brutally honest, id rather have the Pumas' record against NZ over the last few years than ours. They've copped some absolute drubbings but have won 4 times against the ABs in their last 12 attempts. I don't give a toss about close losses, they are absolutely meaningless - it's about winning. Our inability to beat New Zealand on a consistent basis gets right on my nerves.
Agree with this completely I'm calling it now unless the weather conditions are horrendous Steward to be a complete defensive liability, BB and DVM continue to make him look terrible as his lack of pace and defensive positioning get horrifically shown up, I’d love to be wrong but we’ve seen it too many times, there are games I can see him being ok to good, but some tests just amplify his weakness, he doesn’t have the attacking sharpness to make up for the defensive frailties in these games.
 
I gather that the ABs are avid readers of TRF, so also expect them to target Ford and Steward and later M Smith to test whether our views on their respective weaknesses are right.
Isn’t this the thing though we don’t have a good round obviously defensive fall back option currently, I don’t like M Smith at fallback but I’d rather take his defensive frailties paired with his attacking instincts than Stewards
Lack of the former, unless it’s a proper cold stinking wet winter day and a traditional arm wrestle, even then Steward wasn’t exactly king of the air last time around.
 
I absolutely agree that England’s trajectory is very positive, and I believe the next two years will be about fine tuning the system & selection ahead of the RWC. However the 6:2 bench split still strikes me as an unnecessary risk. A utility back can always support the scrum (not front row), but expecting a flanker to play OC or FB is an absolute nightmare.

Played as a back for 28 years so might be biased…
 
Flipping hell … the level of negativity in here is unreal
Yeah I know, I’m done with it tbh. Cue England being absolutely shocking on Saturday, losing by 20 and reminding us all why we’re so negative in the first place 😀😀. If we lose because the ABs outplay us on the day, then fair game. What I don’t want to see is England throwing a win away through stupid mistakes, indiscipline, poor tactics/subs etc. I’m actually looking forward to the game.
 
Flipping hell … the level of negativity in here is unreal
I mean being realistic here how positive can we be, a 12 that probably isn’t quite there internationally a fallback IMHO certainly isn’t and has been shown up against this same opposition, yes England are on a descent winning streak but let’s be honest here they have mostly won games you would have expected them to win, the France one probably not so much, but did feel like a game France just were not France for a descent chunk, the way I see it England are there or there abouts but have glaring issues which are just to easy to expose not to say they aren’t evolving nicely just feels like the cracks remain.
 
There's a big difference in being negative about things that have happened and things that haven't and may not happen.

Ultimately you can only play what's in front of you and I think the Argentina tour in particular was a very positive exercise.

I agree that this game is key in determining how much progress has been made but regardless, I still think we're on a pretty good trajectory.
 
There's a big difference in being negative about things that have happened and things that haven't and may not happen.
Not sure how to read this mate, I’m not sure if that’s aimed and the last post towards me or generally speaking but that’s exactly my point it has happened on more than one occasion Steward has been exposed at the back and not least by this opposition, fair on Dingwall he hasn’t but he has had passes picked off and the ABs have always been good at capitulating on mistakes. Whilst a lot will come across as negative for negative sake there is certainly elements of flaws which have been there for some time being exposed and more akin to educated guess work and predictions.
 
Not sure how to read this mate, I'm not sure if that's aimed and the last post towards me or generally speaking but that's exactly my point it has happened on more than one occasion Steward has been exposed at the back and not least by this opposition, fair on Dingwall he hasn't but he has had passes picked off and the ABs have always been good at capitulating on mistakes. Whilst a lot will come across as negative for negative sake there is certainly elements of flaws which have been there for some time being exposed and more akin to educated guess work and predictions.
Go to day Jimbo it’s starting to sound a lot like making excuses ahead of time rather than being negative. You get injuries in rugby, and that sometimes means you don’t have your best people where you’d like em, but teams that want to lift a WC, or Grand Slam, need to adept and overcome. Even with the areas of weakness I still expect this England team to perform. There are no excuses for me, and I’m sure there won’t be for them in camp. England are fielding some genuine superstars: Earl, IFW, CCS, Itoje, Pollock, Curry, Underhill. Ford is a seasoned and top quality 10, Mitchell has to be up there in world rankings for 9. I’d even argue OL is up there for centres. Roebuck has shown some real promise. These lads can, and should, win come Saturday. If they don’t it will be right to wonder why.
 
That's a good England team, with not a single selection that I'm unhappy about, given where we are.
The usual issues with a 6:2 split, and with one of those being Spencer - let's just keep Mitchel on for as long as he can possibly manage, and keep Ben as the last reserve to cover a later injury. Everyone else on the bench brings good impact, and I don't see our starters taking a backwards step.


NZ are the better team, but England should be the more confident, and are playing at home - this seems likely to come down to a moment of brilliance, bounce of the ball or ref.s decision.
IM not sure id say we're a better team, we have some great individuals but a real archillies heal in recent years has been how these individuals work together, we saw it as recently as the irish game, roigard was at the breakdown ready to pass and the pod was shuffling back a forth like they were workign out what to do
 
I love reading the different views and I think it’s good to have a balanced set of views with some negative and some positive due to the fact it’s going to be a 50/50 game.

It’s not like people are worried we are going to lose to Italy, this is the all blacks. I’m excited for the game but more nervous with our selection and worried that our kicking tactics will be abused by NZ. Just hope SB has his master tactician hat on this Saturday.
 
If we go there trying not to lose to NZ, we will lose. If we go out there trying to win, we will have a chance of winning.

I've felt a mental weakness England have had for years it's that the fear of losing has been more of a driver than the desire to win against top teams. It's why we quite often pummel teams we expect to beat, even when playing badly, but then lose to the top teams.
 
I think the problem is that too often it’s been an either / or. Go flat out attack and it’s a bit sh*t or bust. Play the percentages and you’re probably at least got a chance at the pointy end. NZ in their glory years could be scintillating but the stats showed they kicked as much, if not more, as anyone else.

The Eng performance that has impressed me most in SB’s reign was v Arg in the RWC. Not because it was all court flashy rugby, but because we adapted to the unexpected, picked the right tactics for those circumstances and executed those tactics perfectly, bringing home a thoroughly deserved victory. Far more impressive than a streaky win v France. We’ve got some great players but it’s that kind of nous that’s the missing link - Ford can bring that, but I hate it when I watch him patently playing to a pre-ordained plan.
 
It's one of those weird matches, where I think nearly everyone's raised valid points. In both positive and negative comments. Nobody has said anything that I feel is utter rubbish.

I sit firmly in the Borthwick is risk adverse camp. All the usual clichés about staying in the 'arm wrestle' being in the 'fight' in the last twenty. Nick it at the death. Recent matches have been that way and I think that is how SB sees it. It's probably the right call, so fingers crossed for Saturday.
 

Latest posts

Sponsored
UnlistMe
Back
Top