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England vs USA

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Substitute

Guest
Not Kiwi bashing more just making an observation. An american spotted it to. If England were to do spear tackles like that I would condemn whosoever did as much as the aforementioned New Zealanders, like I condened Vickery.

There can be no place for serious fouls in the game and as an observation New Zealand seem to get away with a few. And of course England use foul play, difference is we get binned and cited alot more.

And the world cup goes to the best side in that year, not to the most consistent. Alll world cup champions are as good as each other as they've acheived the same. What happens after the world cup is of no relevance as to whether a side dserves the trophy or not. It's not a contract to play ntertaining rugby, it is merely a premise to show that at that time you could beat everyone. You can't devalue a world cup because of the performances that follow.
 
E

Eternal Idol

Guest
I hate to say it but International Rugby is beginning to look like the NBA, with referees making calls based on the player's status.[/b]

Is beginning?? It has been this way for ages ...
 
R

RoyalBlueStuey

Guest
Is that all you have, England?

Anyway, that spear tackle wasn't deliberate...you can see he released Mr. Barkley. He shouldn't be banned. It was a good tackle and Barkley went upside down. Non-intentional. End of Story. Great tackle and great mindset for him to release him instead of pile driving him.

But serious, that was England Rugby? Pfffff...give USA Rugby four more years I say, and we're definitely knocking on your door. I gotta start making my notes to train my boyos...the next generation England thumpers!
[/b]

It was reckless, you don't just turn someone upside down and then drop them. You put someone in danger like that and it's your job to make sure they are safe...he deffo should be banned for it. I bet it was different when B O'D got dropped on his shoulder during the Lions tour.

But then again it's England so everyone can just chuckle with the totally unjustified "They need taking down a peg or two" mentality people seem to have.
 
S

stormmaster1

Guest
A performance with little power, pace or accuracy. Given Samoa's all-out performance against SA i could see them leading England at half-time. Many of the Samoan pllayers could easily get in the current England 15. If they had a decent front 5 then they'd have a decent chance of beating us at full time.
 
S

Substitute

Guest
Christ the Samoa game scares me. Sadly the way to beat Samoa is to drain their forwards and not to let the ball go to some of their more dangerous backs. That means you need a pack at the top of their game to gurentee beating Samoa. Englangs pack are f**king useless. At least with Wilko or Barkley and Catt, touch should be found and Samoa won't get the chance to counter attack, with any luck.

Asides from the pack our backline will need to be able to survive off scraps and counter attack well - the current ponderous backline won't do that. Lewsey must go to FB. Yes he's had a couple of bad games there but has Cueto ever had a good game at FB? For the Samoa game I'd play Cueto opposite Tuilagi - can't run the risk of him destroying Sackey or Robbo. I personally don't rate Samoas centres especially highly so I think it could be a good oppurtunity for Tait.

Eitherway the backline needs some attacking panache. Our best defence will still concede tries so we might as well pick a slightly worse defence and have oppurtunities to score more than we can concede. If England are going to win that pack has got to keep the Samoa pack shattered for the entire game.
 
B

Bullitt

Guest
Kaplan and his touchjudges saw the game through one eye.

Emerick was the victim of two dangerous tackles(not called);

The first by Jason Robinson earlier in the match where he grabbed Emerick by the collar then tripped him with his leg.

The second, Vickery's pathaetic trip.

At least Emerick's dangerous tackle resembled a rugby tackle.

I hate to say it but International Rugby is beginning to look like the NBA, with referees making calls based on the player's status.
Two internationalists from the defending world cup champions got away with blatant penalties, while an american is sin binned for a tackle that two Kiwis got away with on the same day. [/b]

Ahem...

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If you think that looked like a rugby tackle then you, sir, are an idiot.
 
T

Triniquint

Guest
Not Kiwi bashing more just making an observation. An american spotted it to. If England were to do spear tackles like that I would condemn whosoever did as much as the aforementioned New Zealanders, like I condened Vickery.

There can be no place for serious fouls in the game and as an observation New Zealand seem to get away with a few. And of course England use foul play, difference is we get binned and cited alot more.

And the world cup goes to the best side in that year, not to the most consistent. Alll world cup champions are as good as each other as they've acheived the same. What happens after the world cup is of no relevance as to whether a side dserves the trophy or not. It's not a contract to play ntertaining rugby, it is merely a premise to show that at that time you could beat everyone. You can't devalue a world cup because of the performances that follow. [/b]



It's all swings and roundabouts. Now they're all going on about the ABs - and they're good, yes, but haven't won the World Cup for 20 years! There's no guarantee they'll win it this time either. Who'd have thought France would lose the inaugural game? Who'd have thought England would have struggled against USA? and then those who had a good laugh had to watch Ireland do similar against Namibia, ffs. I don't think anything is set in concrete in this RWC. It's funny how if the ABs or whomsoever have a dirty, fouling, game, it is 'tough' rugby for which we are meant to be not used to. But when we do the same, we are horrible fouling types. The answer to foul play is to hit back, and hard, as Josh Lewsey did with Matt Rogers. Had it been Matt Rogers doing that to Josh Lewsey, it would have been delightedly spoken of ad nauseum. Jonah Lomu bowling over a couple of slightly built England backs, or Chabal doing similar, is gloated at - but nothing is said when Chabal meets someone his own size, or bigger, and is knocked back.



This seems a very juvenile forum, at times. I occasionally wonder what the average age of the posters are?



It was most certainly a spear tackle on Ollie Barkley. There is no doubt about it. It may well have been a deliberate trip by Vickery, but if you are running one way, and suddenly come to a stop to try and tackle somebody, it is possible your momentum would cause your leg to stick out. I'm not saying this is so, and it could also have been deliberate, but there is a possible doubt there, there is none at all with the spear tackle.
 
S

stormmaster1

Guest
Christ the Samoa game scares me. Sadly the way to beat Samoa is to drain their forwards and not to let the ball go to some of their more dangerous backs. That means you need a pack at the top of their game to gurentee beating Samoa. Englangs pack are f**king useless. At least with Wilko or Barkley and Catt, touch should be found and Samoa won't get the chance to counter attack, with any luck.

Asides from the pack our backline will need to be able to survive off scraps and counter attack well - the current ponderous backline won't do that. Lewsey must go to FB. Yes he's had a couple of bad games there but has Cueto ever had a good game at FB? For the Samoa game I'd play Cueto opposite Tuilagi - can't run the risk of him destroying Sackey or Robbo. I personally don't rate Samoas centres especially highly so I think it could be a good oppurtunity for Tait.

Eitherway the backline needs some attacking panache. Our best defence will still concede tries so we might as well pick a slightly worse defence and have oppurtunities to score more than we can concede. If England are going to win that pack has got to keep the Samoa pack shattered for the entire game. [/b]



England have a pack full of decent players, but since last world cup we have failed to get a collective performance out of them. If England maul and scrum the Samoans as much as possible, they could take the sting out of their game and win comfortably. Player wise the English side can easily do it. Man for man our tight five is much stronger than the Samoans. whether they can do it as a team is what remains to be seen.
 
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Triniquint

Guest
<div class='quotemain'> Christ the Samoa game scares me. Sadly the way to beat Samoa is to drain their forwards and not to let the ball go to some of their more dangerous backs. That means you need a pack at the top of their game to gurentee beating Samoa. Englangs pack are f**king useless. At least with Wilko or Barkley and Catt, touch should be found and Samoa won't get the chance to counter attack, with any luck.

Asides from the pack our backline will need to be able to survive off scraps and counter attack well - the current ponderous backline won't do that. Lewsey must go to FB. Yes he's had a couple of bad games there but has Cueto ever had a good game at FB? For the Samoa game I'd play Cueto opposite Tuilagi - can't run the risk of him destroying Sackey or Robbo. I personally don't rate Samoas centres especially highly so I think it could be a good oppurtunity for Tait.

Eitherway the backline needs some attacking panache. Our best defence will still concede tries so we might as well pick a slightly worse defence and have oppurtunities to score more than we can concede. If England are going to win that pack has got to keep the Samoa pack shattered for the entire game. [/b]



England have a pack full of decent players, but since last world cup we have failed to get a collective performance out of them. If England maul and scrum the Samoans as much as possible, they could take the sting out of their game and win comfortably. Player wise the English side can easily do it. Man for man our tight five is much stronger than the Samoans. whether they can do it as a team is what remains to be seen.

[/b][/quote]



That's it in a nutshell Storm. Man for man, England are as good as anyone. Watching the South Africa v Samoan match, I thought the Samoans played too much on their physicality, which didn't actually work too well. The Boks came across as a better 15-man unit. As well as Habana! What a player! He seems to have it all, as it happens. However, England need the whole of the team to become greater than the sum of its parts. It needs positive synergy, and to 'click' as a unit. I keep waiting for this to happen.........
 
B

Bullitt

Guest
You wqait though until Habana attempts to tackle a decent winger though, then you'll see the weakness in his game; Even Jason Robinson can make a bigger hit then him.

Give Habana the ball and half a yard of space then hill score from anywhere on the pitch. Ask him to distribute or defend and you're f***ed.
 
F

Fa'atau82

Guest
Seeing that Emerick tackle now.. it looks like something from WWE. That is disgusting and he should be banned for that. No way was that an honest tackle.
 
B

Bullitt

Guest
Seeing that Emerick tackle now.. it looks like something from WWE. That is disgusting and he should be banned for that. No way was that an honest tackle. [/b]

Must admit every time I see it, it looks worse.
 
P

Prestwick

Guest
That's it in a nutshell Storm. Man for man, England are as good as anyone. Watching the South Africa v Samoan match, I thought the Samoans played too much on their physicality, which didn't actually work too well. The Boks came across as a better 15-man unit. As well as Habana! What a player! He seems to have it all, as it happens. However, England need the whole of the team to become greater than the sum of its parts. It needs positive synergy, and to 'click' as a unit. I keep waiting for this to happen.........[/b]

The Boks do work together far better as a pack and as a team of fifteen but their wingers are at the end of the day people who's only job is to run fast and keep out of the clutches of the opposite defence. As we saw when Habana tried to tackle during one or two Samoan breaks, he tries to tackle, fails dismally and then ends up scrabbling like an old lady scratching at the poor Samoan's legs and arms with his hands as he desperately tries something, anything to keep ahold of his man. Lucky for him Samoa got pinged both times for going over the top.

And looking at that tackle...if you can even call it that, I'm even more horrified. That was reckless, stupid, idiotic and just plain wrong. I don't care if he didn't mean to do it or not, that tackle is un-ac-cept-a-ble, unacceptable! You simply should not do that in modern rugby (again, unless you're an All Black), end of story.

However, I do find it ironic that a referee who is usually so blatantly biased against England (Kaplan) actually gave England a wide berth. Sad because he missed out Vickery's moment of supreme stupidity.
 
T

The TRUTH

Guest
You wqait though until Habana attempts to tackle a decent winger though, then you'll see the weakness in his game; Even Jason Robinson can make a bigger hit then him.

Give Habana the ball and half a yard of space then hill score from anywhere on the pitch. Ask him to distribute or defend and you're f***ed. [/b]

Not seen alot of Habana, have you?
 
A

AllezWasps

Guest
Not seen alot of Habana, have you?
[/b]

He's so bloody quick, its hard to :p .

What England have to do is man mark Habana. Like Wasps did to Tuilangi in the Hcup final, they have to be tackling as he gets the ball, allowing so little time and space on the ball, so he is then forced to kick. England may not be scoring tries for fun at the moment, but if they can annoy SA, and find a gap like Samoa did, then they stand a great chance.

Vickery's trip deserved a card, not a ban.
Emerick deserved both.
 
O

O'Rothlain

Guest
<div class='quotemain'> Is that all you have, England?

Anyway, that spear tackle wasn't deliberate...you can see he released Mr. Barkley. He shouldn't be banned. It was a good tackle and Barkley went upside down. Non-intentional. End of Story. Great tackle and great mindset for him to release him instead of pile driving him.

But serious, that was England Rugby? Pfffff...give USA Rugby four more years I say, and we're definitely knocking on your door. I gotta start making my notes to train my boyos...the next generation England thumpers!
[/b]

It was reckless, you don't just turn someone upside down and then drop them. You put someone in danger like that and it's your job to make sure they are safe...he deffo should be banned for it. I bet it was different when B O'D got dropped on his shoulder during the Lions tour.

But then again it's England so everyone can just chuckle with the totally unjustified "They need taking down a peg or two" mentality people seem to have.
[/b][/quote]
Two players picking up a man, turning him upside down and then pile-driving are quite different from someone going upside down in the tackle and that player releasing him to ensure that his body weight doesn't add to the impact. Yeah, so what happend to BOD was quite different. He couldn't play for nearly a year, whilst Olly was up and playing just after, thanks to Emerick releasing him and not slamming him.
 
B

Bullitt

Guest
So that makes it alright then, does it?

IT WAS A DANGEROUS TACKLE. STOP TRYING TO DEFEND IT BECAUSE YOU CANT.


There see what you've made me do now. I've gone and used block capitals.
 
S

stormmaster1

Guest
That's it in a nutshell Storm. Man for man, England are as good as anyone. Watching the South Africa v Samoan match, I thought the Samoans played too much on their physicality, which didn't actually work too well. The Boks came across as a better 15-man unit. As well as Habana! What a player! He seems to have it all, as it happens. However, England need the whole of the team to become greater than the sum of its parts. It needs positive synergy, and to 'click' as a unit. I keep waiting for this to happen.........

[/b]



Maybe we need to take lessons from some of the lesser nations that always punch above their weight simply because they click as a team and have a little passion, e.g. USA, Canada, Scotland ;)



The whole stopping Habana thing doesn't worry me too much. Allezwasps suggests manmarking him, but i'd say the way to deal with dangerous winger (like Tuilagi in the HC final) is to deny them any sort of quality ball. The backs won't be so dangerous living off scraps. Sounds so easy. Now all we have to do is outplay the springbok pack. Easy....................
 
T

Triniquint

Guest
<div class='quotemain'>

That's it in a nutshell Storm. Man for man, England are as good as anyone. Watching the South Africa v Samoan match, I thought the Samoans played too much on their physicality, which didn't actually work too well. The Boks came across as a better 15-man unit. As well as Habana! What a player! He seems to have it all, as it happens. However, England need the whole of the team to become greater than the sum of its parts. It needs positive synergy, and to 'click' as a unit. I keep waiting for this to happen.........

[/b]



Maybe we need to take lessons from some of the lesser nations that always punch above their weight simply because they click as a team and have a little passion, e.g. USA, Canada, Scotland ;)



The whole stopping Habana thing doesn't worry me too much. Allezwasps suggests manmarking him, but i'd say the way to deal with dangerous winger (like Tuilagi in the HC final) is to deny them any sort of quality ball. The backs won't be so dangerous living off scraps. Sounds so easy. Now all we have to do is outplay the springbok pack. Easy....................

[/b][/quote]

You're quite right again as this is precisely what they did when playing Australia in one world cup, I forget which, and Campese had made dire warnings of what he intended to do to England. In the match England kind of ignored him, and his impact was virtually nil, as he got no ball..... As you say, to do this we have to front up to the Bok pack, and bully it. We have the individuals, but can we switch on and flow.........? We'll soon see......
 

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