England World Cup Squad

[TRF_Olyy]

Otherwise, I'd all 3 of them to fight for their places and push each other on

Yeah, I'm only joking
I reckon:
6. Curry, Ludlam
7. Willis, Underhill

and make your combos from that - Pearson a potential bolter for Ludlam

 

[Geordie]

Me when I see both Kamikaze Twins fit at the same time

View attachment 16840

Be interesting to see where Pearson comes in the set up now...hes some player...AND has that physicality to match.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Really pleased to see underhill back but we almost have too much talent now in the back row. How does currys, underhill, ted hill, Ludlum, Earl, Pearson, Willis and Lawes all fit in the squad if we have Dombrant /mercer at 8.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Chris Jones saying Chessum, Vunipola and LCD in the squad on rehab

But at last something to talk about

 

[Saintjay]

Really pleased to see underhill back but we almost have too much talent now in the back row. How does currys, underhill, ted hill, Ludlum, Earl, Pearson, Willis and Lawes all fit in the squad if we have Dombrant /mercer at 8.

How many of those can play 8? Still not convinced of Dombrant but yeah slim pickings at 8. It would be the nuclear option but sack Dombrant off and take those who can cover. Guessing we are probably all hoping Mercer plays as good as we all think he can.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I think 11 max from this squad will still be in it come rugby World Cup

 

[Jimbo]

Notable omissions:
- McGuigan
- Launchbury
- Rogerson
- Simmonds

Pleasantly surprised to see Marler and Rapava-Ruskin in there. As much as I don't love some of his exploits Marler is probably our best loosehead when he actually makes himself available. Good to see that the rumoured beef between Borthwick and VRR was likely false.

McGuigan not being included is odd. Would take him above all 3 hookers selected.

No Launchbury is disappointing. Think he could have made a late push for the squad. I'm no fan of Ewels but ultimately with so many locks unavailable I guess it makes some sense to see where he's at post-injury. Would hope he doesn't go much further than this squad though.

No Simmonds makes sense really. Surprised that Rogerson hasn't been included for this squad after the media noise around him the last couple of weeks. Very happy to see that Underhill is available.

After that it's all more or less as expected really. Would have liked to see S. Atkinson ahead of W. Joseph as he offers 12 cover and IMO is just a better player, but I don't think either would be anywhere near the 33 so it's a bit irrelevant.

Overall I quite like it, but there are some things I'd change.

Trouble is how many changes is he prepared to make, on one side the easier route creates the automatic expectation of probably reaching semis whilst on paper has little change of beating Fra, Ire or SA (obviously you can't write off teams like Aus and ABs), but not reaching semis or getting out the pool would be an epic failure based on the group so I can understand why he wouldn't want to attempt too many changes, he can also manage players and see if certain short comings were a result of them or other previous coaching issues/directives, overall I'm pretty happy with this and that some long term problems are beginning to be addressed, it's probably at this stage just a balancing act between getting some experience for those less experienced and utilising the older guard.

 

[Jimbo]

Really pleased to see underhill back but we almost have too much talent now in the back row. How does currys, underhill, ted hill, Ludlum, Earl, Pearson, Willis and Lawes all fit in the squad if we have Dombrant /mercer at 8.

I'd rather he wasn't included to be honest, fantastic in what he does and I can't think of anyone who can do the role in the same manner and he is probably what's been missing post WC for large parts, I just can't look past all his concussion/head issues and fear for the negative impact that could have on him and his loved ones, there comes a time when you think a player just needs to look after themselves.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Vunipola

Mako or Billy?
There was talk of Billy being recalled recently

 

[BPM]

I think 11 max from this squad will still be in it come rugby World Cup

Yeah. At first that sounded harsh and then I did my own count and came up with 11 too:

Genge
Sinckler
Stuart
Underhill
Dombrandt
Mercer
Smith
Slade
Lawrence
Arundell

Plus one of the other looseheads.

Maybe 12 …

I know I'm going to get some heat for saying this, but the more I think about it, I could see May going. He's had a poor season for sure, but having seen our other inexperienced options failing to really grab the opportunity, I think May at 80% of his peak is probably still better than the alternatives.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Yeah. At first that sounded harsh and then I did my own count and came up with 11 too:

Genge
Sinckler
Stuart
Underhill
Dombrandt
Mercer
Smith
Slade
Lawrence
Arundell

Plus one of the other looseheads.

Maybe 12 …

I know I'm going to get some heat for saying this, but the more I think about it, I could see May going. He's had a poor season for sure, but having seen our other inexperienced options failing to really grab the opportunity, I think May at 80% of his peak is probably still better than the alternatives.

I wouldn't mind May but I do think he has started drawing down the credit he had in the bank. Still some left but not as much as 2 or 3 years ago. Not our worst by any stretch of the imagination. Youngs would bumble along in debt and then get a decent lottery ticket before burning through it all again and then winning the lottery again.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Definitely possible - though him not featuring in the 6N (think he was fit for most of it?) after starting 3 games in the Autumn does suggest he's down the pecking order a bit
Agree that May at anywhere close to his peak is better than most other options but I'd have strong concerns over whether he's anywhere near that form these days

That said, after the 6N we had, I'd probably pick him over OHC and Malins


Pretty funny that, of the side that lost against Australia and saw us knocked out of the RWC in 2015, we could be going into this one with 9 of that 23 (Anthony Watson, Jonny May
Owen Farrell, Ben Youngs, Joe Launchbury, Dan Cole, Joe Marler, Mako Vunipola, George Ford)
It's actually a pretty decent side, barring the lacklustre backrow, you can see why the coaching staff were binned because they should have achieved much more

 

[BPM]

I think not having May underlined what we were missing. He's obviously not as good as he was, but going in to a tournament starting 3 months after the season has ended, picking on form isn't really an accurate indicator.

I think what players do in the training camps will be a massive factor and May is known to be super dedicated, so I can imagine him doing well.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I'd rather he wasn't included to be honest, fantastic in what he does and I can't think of anyone who can do the role in the same manner and he is probably what's been missing post WC for large parts, I just can't look past all his concussion/head issues and fear for the negative impact that could have on him and his loved ones, there comes a time when you think a player just needs to look after themselves.

Agreed on all counts although given what is now known about concussion you'd 'hope' the medics would pull the plug if they had any real concerns.

Where he - or frankly anyone else - fits into our back row conundrum, who knows?

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Where he - or frankly anyone else - fits into our back row conundrum, who knows?

For me if Underhill is firing on all cylinders then he starts, no questions asked.

6. Curry
7. Underhill
8. Whoever does most during camp/warm-ups

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I think 11 max from this squad will still be in it come rugby World Cup

Which kind of makes you wonder about the whole point of it. Give them another week on the beach.

The first warm up game isn't until 5th August. First tournament match isn't until 9th Sep and, let's be honest (or arrogantly English), we don't need to be peaking for the pool. The knock out phase doesn't begin until 14th Oct.

Better to go in slightly undercooked and pick up momentum than bored sh1tless at the sight of each other.

Not that it really matters as we're only quibbling about one result which will determine whether we go out at the QF or SF stage.

 

[TopTen2003]

Hope this isn't a naive question, but if we aren't happy with our Number 8s, could Lawes play that role and free up the talented mix we have competing for the 6 and 7 slots?

When I think of him at his best, his carrying and his ability to offload in contact might suit him in some aspects of the game an international 8 would be needing to demonstrate. I don't think he'd be massively different to a Billy Vunipola style 8 if he played it.

Talking of him, is there any incline of BV finding his absolute best for this tournament or is it possibly just a tournament too far?

As a further note, this squad does highlight just how short at lock we are on paper for this RWC and I would again be very keen to know whether anyone thinks Lawes could do it for this tournament or not?

Really hope Steve and the coaching staff can really knit this squad together now over the next couple of months and get a real cohesion in place to give it a right old go. Hope we can keep everyone fit and well- big few months ahead.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Which kind of makes you wonder about the whole point of it. Give them another week on the beach.

The first warm up game isn't until 5th August. First tournament match isn't until 9th Sep and, let's be honest (or arrogantly English), we don't need to be peaking for the pool. The knock out phase doesn't begin until 14th Oct.

Better to go in slightly undercooked and pick up momentum than bored sh1tless at the sight of each other.

Not that it really matters as we're only quibbling about one result which will determine whether we go out at the QF or SF stage.

Honestly, this camp is probably just as much of an early practice for Borthwick who is having one of his first goes at getting a group of players who are relatively unfamiliar with each other to play his way in a short amount of time. Then when everyone else comes in he's already familiar with it - plus those players who will still be there will be familiar with the systems and able to help out the newcomers.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Hope this isn't a naive question, but if we aren't happy with our Number 8s, could Lawes play that role and free up the talented mix we have competing for the 6 and 7 slots?

When I think of him at his best, his carrying and his ability to offload in contact might suit him in some aspects of the game an international 8 would be needing to demonstrate. I don't think he'd be massively different to a Billy Vunipola style 8 if he played it.

Talking of him, is there any incline of BV finding his absolute best for this tournament or is it possibly just a tournament too far?

As a further note, this squad does highlight just how short at lock we are on paper for this RWC and I would again be very keen to know whether anyone thinks Lawes could do it for this tournament or not?

Really hope Steve and the coaching staff can really knit this squad together now over the next couple of months and get a real cohesion in place to give it a right old go. Hope we can keep everyone fit and well- big few months ahead.

I wouldn't put Lawes at 8. Despite all the flak, Dombrandt wasn't THAT bad, he mostly just had butterfingers (when he was running lines that the likes of Bill V would never have even been attempting). Mercer I have rated for years and he has always been a real fighter, I think we have missed more of that sort of character in the squad. Mucking around with player positions for a world cup is a recipe for disaster, that's something to be done at the start of a season, not immediately before a major tournament unless you are really desperate. We will need someone who can control the ball in a scrum and has explosive energy off the base. Lawes has never really showed that explosive energy and has not experience trying to control the ball.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Lawes' carrying in the tight isn't great, as well - very upright - and that's where an 8 makes more carries than 6 does. Great at weak shoulders and looking for the offload, not so much doing a 2m carry into traffic
Curry would be the better option of the two, these days, but even then: Mercer has looked fantastic in the Top 14 and Champions cup