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Fekitoa set to make Tonga switch.

dullonien

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For pacific islanders It wont change their decision at all. A pretty easy decision to make your village far richer than its ever been.
It's up to each player to make their own decision obviously, I understand there's lots of nuance in this discussion. But playing for NZ isn't the only way of providing for their families/village. If they're good enough to be capped by NZ then they'll already be earning good money for their club, and if they're after more money still, then there'll be plenty of opportunities for big deals abroad whilst representing whichever country they consider 'home'.
they do, lots of all blacks only find they've made the squad when its announced, Brad thorn had to publicly make himself available for the ABs because he was thinking about going back to league and didn;t feel he'd earned his spot, Liam squire publicly turned down a spot because he didn't feel his mental health was right for the extra workload
That won't be the norm though. The AB management will do their due diligence in most cases and approach a player beforehand, especially ones with complicated backgrounds. They won't want egg on their faces from players turning around and being like 'erm, wtf you doing including me in your NZ squad, I'm Tongan'! From my understanding international managements from all countries contact all kinds of promising eligible players on a consistent basis to understand their potential allegiances etc. And if they don't, the media certainly will have asked the question at some point.
 

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It's up to each player to make their own decision obviously, I understand there's lots of nuance in this discussion. But playing for NZ isn't the only way of providing for their families/village. If they're good enough to be capped by NZ then they'll already be earning good money for their club, and if they're after more money still, then there'll be plenty of opportunities for big deals abroad whilst representing whichever country they consider 'home'.

That won't be the norm though. The AB management will do their due diligence in most cases and approach a player beforehand, especially ones with complicated backgrounds. They won't want egg on their faces from players turning around and being like 'erm, wtf you doing including me in your NZ squad, I'm Tongan'! From my understanding international managements from all countries contact all kinds of promising eligible players on a consistent basis to understand their potential allegiances etc. And if they don't, the media certainly will have asked the question at some point.
Yeah nah. If they are playing in nz theyll be making **** all compared to what they can get once they play for the all blacks, especially as thats what allows them to market themselves overseas.
 

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It'll be interesting to see how this weakens/strengthens the PI sides

On the one hand they'll get some good older players, who are a RWC cycle removed from playing for the ABs (or whoever else), but on the other they're going to see their best younger talent turn down callups to hold out for an AB/Wallaby/whoever else cap, knowing they can have a second crack at it further down the line

Just seems short sighted IMO.
 

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It'll be interesting to see how this weakens/strengthens the PI sides

On the one hand they'll get some good older players, who are a RWC cycle removed from playing for the ABs (or whoever else), but on the other they're going to see their best younger talent turn down callups to hold out for an AB/Wallaby/whoever else cap, knowing they can have a second crack at it further down the line

Just seems short sighted IMO.

That's already happening though.
 

dullonien

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Yeah nah. If they are playing in nz theyll be making **** all compared to what they can get once they play for the all blacks, especially as thats what allows them to market themselves overseas.

That's a slightly simplistic view of things imo. A player performing consistently well in SR (to the extent that they're a shoe-in for an All Blacks squad) would be offered big-ish contracts by a lot of teams (UK, France, Japan), and if they continue to perform will be offered bigger and bigger contracts. Plenty of PI players on bumper wages all over Europe.

However I get what you're saying, even a 1 cap all black is a sought after commodity in France and Japan especially. I suppose there's more guarantees more than anything of big contracts once they've been capped by the all blacks. But it's not the only route for a PI player maximising their monetary potential.
 

Kiwiwomble

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another thing that i dont think is grasped outside the pacific, a lot of these have equal pull to both NZ and tonga/fiji/samoa

Hell i spent some time growing up in Samoa and have a fondness for them, we're neighbours but there isn't the rivalry that you might get between england and scotland/wales/ireland etc. There is that rivalry between the islands themselves but not really between NZ and the islands

so when they get called up to the AB's, as well as thinking they'll be able to support their families, it could quite honestly be one of two teams they have always dreamed of playing for
 

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another thing that i dont think is grasped outside the pacific, a lot of these have equal pull to both NZ and tonga/fiji/samoa

Hell i spent some time growing up in Samoa and have a fondness for them, we're neighbours but there isn't the rivalry that you might get between england and scotland/wales/ireland etc. There is that rivalry between the islands themselves but not really between NZ and the islands

so when they get called up to the AB's, as well as thinking they'll be able to support their families, it could quite honestly be one of two teams they have always dreamed of playing for
Yep, and further to that if a pi player geows up in nz or partly grows up in nz and their parents didnt, they will often feel an allegiance to both countries. This idea that people can only ever belong to one country just diesnt jive.
 

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Yep, and further to that if a pi player geows up in nz or partly grows up in nz and their parents didnt, they will often feel an allegiance to both countries. This idea that people can only ever belong to one country just diesnt jive.
I find it a little strange when British people get annoyed about dual nationality when a lot of people who identify as “British” feel an affinity to 2 separate nations. Whether that be England and the UK, Northern Ireland and the UK, Wales and the UK or Scotland and the UK. Not to mention the many many millions of people all over the world who feel a strong affinity to 2 nations due to their parents or grandparents being immigrants and they were raised, from a cultural point of view, very much in keeping with the land of their ancestors.

I can understand for sporting purposes getting people nailed down to one country but humans are pretty complex mammals and it’s not as black and white as some people seem to think it is. It’s a tricky one though for sure
 

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I can understand for sporting purposes getting people nailed down to one country
That's literally what this is about though

This isn't about nationality as a whole, it's about representative professional sports
 

Welsh Exile

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That's literally what this is about though

This isn't about nationality as a whole, it's about representative professional sports
Yeah that’s why I think it’s tricky. Especially for a small sport like Rugby and also because you have the PI nations who, through no fault of their own, tend to be at a disadvantage to other, richer nations.

I think a compromise like this for Olympic Games/7s matches or what have you is good and doesn’t really have any impact or call into question the integrity of the sport or anything like that.
 

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Just some random thoughts here not directed at anyone but can you imagine how amazing the PI teams would be if they were independently wealthy nations? Us Europeans wouldn’t get a look in at the WC. They’d be some of the, if not the, best rugby nations on the planet.

I feel sorry for the normal PI rugby fans (I probably shouldn’t) as they watch their best players go to NZ or OZ (sometimes even Europe) and line up for other nations. Which is fine for the most part as a lot of the time those players are raised, sometimes born, in those new countries. Also, it appears a lot of the PI fans are very proud of those players doing well for New Zealand, Australia or what have you.

I just think it would be so great for the sport if we can do more things to help specifically the PI nations to utilise their lost assets. I know this does go onto some dodgy ground but at the least I’d like to see us try out more things to help the PI lads.

Actually, talking about small, poor, proud rugby nations that need help. Spare a little thought for poor old Wales. We could do with a hand you know (joke)

Talking about our resident Tongan, if it transpired that we dropped Faletau for 4 years and he was allowed to play for Tonga in a full blown WC I would have no problem with it what so ever and would actually be really happy for him.
 

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Dude, don't tee them up like that.
KrxhkC0_pBp29Zl1uJPCCSzBkKXCcPGbw43kySWakE4.jpg
 

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Talking about our resident Tongan, if it transpired that we dropped Faletau for 4 years and he was allowed to play for Tonga in a full blown WC I would have no problem with it what so ever and would actually be really happy for him.
Does this logic also apply to Tomkins playing for England?
 

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Found this thread too late i guess.

I honestly don't understand how anyone can be in favour of things like this

Rant mode on: Sometimes I read threads about this subject, here or on social media, and i feel like i am from a different universe. It's not that i am right and they are wrong. I (not alone here, pretty sure) just want different, incompatible things from what others and governing body want. I do. And i know i part of a minority.
I also believe that, compared to others, i tend to post more with the head than with the heart, meaning that if i see something i believe to be wrong, i don't care whether it favours Argentina or not, i will speak against it (I've yet to hear a single Irish poster complain about CJ Stander playing for Ireland. Not one).
If i don't, please point it out.

The sport is growing (albeit slower than expected) granted. But i see a small group of people that are incredibly disillusioned with how things are being run. These are not newcomers or people who just show up for world cups. People who week in and week out pay their subscription, go to the stadium or the pub and watch their team. This group is more often than not the spearhead that lures a lot of people into the sport, both as players and spectators. We are losing interest in international rugby. We are. Not all, course, but that few either. It is bloody sad to admit it, let alone say it out loud, but we are.

Naturally, i won't stop following the sport, but i will focus more on club games. For the lack of a better phrase, i am not interested in watching barbarian like teams facing each other while singing national anthems in a desperate attempt to add some sort of authenticity to the event. I find that quite difficult to swallow. I really do.

If i want to watch the best team money can buy I'll stick to the french league. But that is not what i am looking for when i watch international rugby.
What makes things worse is that some have found a very inelegant way to push back: they just call you a xenophobe or even a racist, which is nothing short of ludicrous.
I know i know. The financial aspect. Some will argue: but the players pay is severely affected by this. Let me be honest about this. I come from a place where a doctor (MD) earns 600 USD a month. Do you really think that a player earning 200k a year instead of 400K is something i care about? I do not. I do not give a flying turd to be honest.
We've somehow managed to relativize this issue to the point where the players' bonuses dictate what the rules should be in order to represent the country. And we speak about it openly and proudly. What the actual ****?
I know, idealist. True. And you have the power to dismiss everything I'm saying. Every single word. That is also true. And i know it.

I understand some cases are not straightforward: born in A, mother from B, father from C, raised in D, been residing in E for 5 years. Who does he play for?. Fair enough. I would like the player to have no choice whatsoever, but we are nowhere near ready to have that conversation, so i am willing to compromise. He can choose. But once and only once. He plays for country's A under 12's side in a friendly, that's it. You can play for that national side and only that national side. No exceptions.

I understand this will not be popular. Many will argue some sort of fairness issue. I don't buy it. I think they will call it out because it affects their team in a negative way. The countries that scream the loudest on this issue are the ones affected the most (hence my comment about pointing it out to me if I ever contradict myself here). The arguments are more about defending what is convenient to your team than what is right.

This is not about their right to work, wherever and for whomever they chose to. That is what clubs are for. I want national sides to stand for something else. Again, we might very well want different things.


One last thing: history sometimes works a bit like a pendulum in many ways. Things go one way and display a crystal clear trend that appears to be overwhelmingly popular. Then suddenly, and maybe precisely because of that, the opposite view (with both faults and merits) is missed and gains popularity. Then things go all the other way. I believe this is one of those cases. I have nothing but anecdotal evidence to support this and no tangible data to support it.
Whenever i am at the pub and CJ is singing Ireland's call, every single non-Irish person there is laughing or smirking. They find that bad for the sport.
They tolerate it, but they do not like it one bit.
My guess is that this will get to such a ridiculous level (not difficult to argue we are already there) that the backlash is nothing but inevitable.

Yeah that’s why I think it’s tricky.
I don't think it is. How many cases are 'complex' ones? 1? 2%? yet we make the rules based on those exceptions and let the other 98% exploit those rules.
It's not tricky, you just need to be willing to upset some people and accept the fact that no solution will please everyone on this.
 

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Found this thread too late i guess.



Rant mode on: Sometimes I read threads about this subject, here or on social media, and i feel like i am from a different universe. It's not that i am right and they are wrong. I (not alone here, pretty sure) just want different, incompatible things from what others and governing body want. I do. And i know i part of a minority.
I also believe that, compared to others, i tend to post more with the head than with the heart, meaning that if i see something i believe to be wrong, i don't care whether it favours Argentina or not, i will speak against it (I've yet to hear a single Irish poster complain about CJ Stander playing for Ireland. Not one).
If i don't, please point it out.

The sport is growing (albeit slower than expected) granted. But i see a small group of people that are incredibly disillusioned with how things are being run. These are not newcomers or people who just show up for world cups. People who week in and week out pay their subscription, go to the stadium or the pub and watch their team. This group is more often than not the spearhead that lures a lot of people into the sport, both as players and spectators. We are losing interest in international rugby. We are. Not all, course, but that few either. It is bloody sad to admit it, let alone say it out loud, but we are.

Naturally, i won't stop following the sport, but i will focus more on club games. For the lack of a better phrase, i am not interested in watching barbarian like teams facing each other while singing national anthems in a desperate attempt to add some sort of authenticity to the event. I find that quite difficult to swallow. I really do.

If i want to watch the best team money can buy I'll stick to the french league. But that is not what i am looking for when i watch international rugby.
What makes things worse is that some have found a very inelegant way to push back: they just call you a xenophobe or even a racist, which is nothing short of ludicrous.
I know i know. The financial aspect. Some will argue: but the players pay is severely affected by this. Let me be honest about this. I come from a place where a doctor (MD) earns 600 USD a month. Do you really think that a player earning 200k a year instead of 400K is something i care about? I do not. I do not give a flying turd to be honest.
We've somehow managed to relativize this issue to the point where the players' bonuses dictate what the rules should be in order to represent the country. And we speak about it openly and proudly. What the actual ****?
I know, idealist. True. And you have the power to dismiss everything I'm saying. Every single word. That is also true. And i know it.

I understand some cases are not straightforward: born in A, mother from B, father from C, raised in D, been residing in E for 5 years. Who does he play for?. Fair enough. I would like the player to have no choice whatsoever, but we are nowhere near ready to have that conversation, so i am willing to compromise. He can choose. But once and only once. He plays for country's A under 12's side in a friendly, that's it. You can play for that national side and only that national side. No exceptions.

I understand this will not be popular. Many will argue some sort of fairness issue. I don't buy it. I think they will call it out because it affects their team in a negative way. The countries that scream the loudest on this issue are the ones affected the most (hence my comment about pointing it out to me if I ever contradict myself here). The arguments are more about defending what is convenient to your team than what is right.

This is not about their right to work, wherever and for whomever they chose to. That is what clubs are for. I want national sides to stand for something else. Again, we might very well want different things.


One last thing: history sometimes works a bit like a pendulum in many ways. Things go one way and display a crystal clear trend that appears to be overwhelmingly popular. Then suddenly, and maybe precisely because of that, the opposite view (with both faults and merits) is missed and gains popularity. Then things go all the other way. I believe this is one of those cases. I have nothing but anecdotal evidence to support this and no tangible data to support it.
Whenever i am at the pub and CJ is singing Ireland's call, every single non-Irish person there is laughing or smirking. They find that bad for the sport.
They tolerate it, but they do not like it one bit.
My guess is that this will get to such a ridiculous level (not difficult to argue we are already there) that the backlash is nothing but inevitable.


I don't think it is. How many cases are 'complex' ones? 1? 2%? yet we make the rules based on those exceptions and let the other 98% exploit those rules.
It's not tricky, you just need to be willing to upset some people and accept the fact that no solution will please everyone on this.
Yes totally agree.
Limit it to Birth, parental nationality and residence as U-18.
Residence over 18 restricted to 10 years or over.

Also, the clubs need to create rules about overseas players a bit like the IPL cricket.
In the SH, the unions need to get more private equity into it so the burden is less for unions. Then those PI players would be able to stay PI registered while earning money in other countries.
 

Umaga's Witness

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Found this thread too late i guess.



Rant mode on: Sometimes I read threads about this subject, here or on social media, and i feel like i am from a different universe. It's not that i am right and they are wrong. I (not alone here, pretty sure) just want different, incompatible things from what others and governing body want. I do. And i know i part of a minority.
I also believe that, compared to others, i tend to post more with the head than with the heart, meaning that if i see something i believe to be wrong, i don't care whether it favours Argentina or not, i will speak against it (I've yet to hear a single Irish poster complain about CJ Stander playing for Ireland. Not one).
If i don't, please point it out.

The sport is growing (albeit slower than expected) granted. But i see a small group of people that are incredibly disillusioned with how things are being run. These are not newcomers or people who just show up for world cups. People who week in and week out pay their subscription, go to the stadium or the pub and watch their team. This group is more often than not the spearhead that lures a lot of people into the sport, both as players and spectators. We are losing interest in international rugby. We are. Not all, course, but that few either. It is bloody sad to admit it, let alone say it out loud, but we are.

Naturally, i won't stop following the sport, but i will focus more on club games. For the lack of a better phrase, i am not interested in watching barbarian like teams facing each other while singing national anthems in a desperate attempt to add some sort of authenticity to the event. I find that quite difficult to swallow. I really do.

If i want to watch the best team money can buy I'll stick to the french league. But that is not what i am looking for when i watch international rugby.
What makes things worse is that some have found a very inelegant way to push back: they just call you a xenophobe or even a racist, which is nothing short of ludicrous.
I know i know. The financial aspect. Some will argue: but the players pay is severely affected by this. Let me be honest about this. I come from a place where a doctor (MD) earns 600 USD a month. Do you really think that a player earning 200k a year instead of 400K is something i care about? I do not. I do not give a flying turd to be honest.
We've somehow managed to relativize this issue to the point where the players' bonuses dictate what the rules should be in order to represent the country. And we speak about it openly and proudly. What the actual ****?
I know, idealist. True. And you have the power to dismiss everything I'm saying. Every single word. That is also true. And i know it.

I understand some cases are not straightforward: born in A, mother from B, father from C, raised in D, been residing in E for 5 years. Who does he play for?. Fair enough. I would like the player to have no choice whatsoever, but we are nowhere near ready to have that conversation, so i am willing to compromise. He can choose. But once and only once. He plays for country's A under 12's side in a friendly, that's it. You can play for that national side and only that national side. No exceptions.

I understand this will not be popular. Many will argue some sort of fairness issue. I don't buy it. I think they will call it out because it affects their team in a negative way. The countries that scream the loudest on this issue are the ones affected the most (hence my comment about pointing it out to me if I ever contradict myself here). The arguments are more about defending what is convenient to your team than what is right.

This is not about their right to work, wherever and for whomever they chose to. That is what clubs are for. I want national sides to stand for something else. Again, we might very well want different things.


One last thing: history sometimes works a bit like a pendulum in many ways. Things go one way and display a crystal clear trend that appears to be overwhelmingly popular. Then suddenly, and maybe precisely because of that, the opposite view (with both faults and merits) is missed and gains popularity. Then things go all the other way. I believe this is one of those cases. I have nothing but anecdotal evidence to support this and no tangible data to support it.
Whenever i am at the pub and CJ is singing Ireland's call, every single non-Irish person there is laughing or smirking. They find that bad for the sport.
They tolerate it, but they do not like it one bit.
My guess is that this will get to such a ridiculous level (not difficult to argue we are already there) that the backlash is nothing but inevitable.


I don't think it is. How many cases are 'complex' ones? 1? 2%? yet we make the rules based on those exceptions and let the other 98% exploit those rules.
It's not tricky, you just need to be willing to upset some people and accept the fact that no solution will please everyone on this.
Im not clear what you are trying to say in regards to this thread.
Even based on your philosophy i dont see how the current rules are good or how the loophole is bad.

Fekitoa is exploiting the loophole to play for tonga because he feels allegiance to tonga, exactly as you would want based on your philosophy (although to be fair he probably cares more about representing his culture than his nation, so the philosophy isnt exactly the same).

but you are pribably more concerned with players using the loophole to play for a country they have no allegiance to. If a rich country is going to lure a player it will happen whether or not this loophole exists. So the loophole just means that before they make the switch they get to play for the country they jave allegiance to, rather than never getting to. So, again, the loophole fits with your philosophy.

the current laws have nothing to ensure a player has allegiance to a nation before playing for them, so the current laws dont really fit with your philosophy. So i dont understand what your issue is with people claiming the current laws are flawed.

your point about not caring about how much money these well off players get makes me think youve misunderstood other people’s points. I think you have contradicted yourself. You are suggesting people shouldnt have sympathy for players who go for the money, and that if they do so then that should just be nad luck for them and they shouldnt then be allowed to play for the country they have allegiance to. But your main point is that players should play for the nation they have allegiance to. So its a contradiction. the point is pacific islanders will most often be lured by the money to play for a team they dont have allegiance to.

I agree with welsh exile that the priblem stems from the national unions being in control of the money.

i dont want international rugby to stop being the pinnacle of the game, unless they replace it with a competition between different cultural teams ( noting a culture can be multictural), or teams aligned to different causes. I personally dont support new zealand because of any allegiance to the country, its because it represents a multicultural society and includes the kind of free flowing, instinctive play that i grew up playing during lunch breaks at school and in the back yard, and i like the idea we are hard working and resilient types. I also enjoy beating australians because i like to pretend they are all arrigant and therefore we are beating arrogant people, i like beating the english because i like to pretwnd thwy are all evil based on their actions of the past, etc. i want to emphasise this is all pretend for me, because as soon as i think more deeply there is a whole lot i dont like about new zealand and i do like aboit other countries, and a lot i dont like about patriotism and the concept of nations generally. So i dont take it seriously, i just pretend at the time, to make the story more fun, like a cartoon.

philosophically, to me you should be able to play for whatever country feel the most affinity to at the time, whether or not youve ever lived there. Pretty impossible to achieve of course, but if you are going to get close to that ideal you first have to remove differences in money between national teams.

the funding for internationals should be centralized, with all countries earning equal amounts
 
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Cruz_del_Sur

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Im not clear what you are trying to say in regards to this thread.
That allowing things like this to happen might eventually come at a cost. I have no idea if that cost is high enough to change things, thou.

The fact we all call it a loophole speaks volumes.


philosophically, to me you should be able to play for whatever country feel the most affinity to at the time,
In principle i agree. In practice i disagree, 100%. Affinity is unmeasurable, and therefore we can only use the players' word as a proxy which is precisely the problem as players can decide based on financials and use affinity as an elegant yet obvious excuse.

The point of international rugby, the ENTIRE bloody point, was to differentiate itself from club rugby by playing with what you've got. The point was to remove the ability from teams to lure, poach or seduce players. Part of the argument was that that way you could level the playing field a bit and give smaller/poorer nations a shot. That is gone, all gone. You have federations luring players to fit in whatever rules say they need to comply with.

You speak of affinity. Have a look, an honest look at tier 2 and 3 and talk to me about affinity. Nearly a quarter of the dutch team can't even sing the anthem. Not because they don't know the lyrics. Then can't even speak the language of the country they represent! It's hardly the exception.
Language is not a minor issue here. The fact most tier1 + PI all speak English helps to disguise this. Have a look next time Japan fields a new player. James Moore comes to mind.

i dont want international rugby to stop being the pinnacle of the game, unless they replace it with a competition between different cultural teams ( noting a culture can be multictural), or teams aligned to different causes. I personally dont support new zealand because of any allegiance to the country, its because it represents a multicultural society and includes the kind of free flowing, instinctive play that i grew up playing during lunch breaks at school and in the back yard, and i like the idea we are hard working and resilient types.
Couple of points. First: Is it? In NZ or RSA yes, but would the French national side beat the best Top 14 team? Not sure.

Then you lost me a bit. First you claim you would like some sort of affinity and then you somehow claim it means nothing with your patriotism argument. Which one is it? Either it represents something or it doesn't.
What that country represents (specifically) is secondary at best here. Multiculturalism, whatever you wanna call it. Does it represent something or not? Or is it just a bunch of people who play to get paid?
It doesn't appear to be working. You have people born in country A, who love the place, call it home, and play for country B just for the money. You seem to approve of that, and that is ok. I do not.

At least let's have the intellectual honesty to name the teams properly then. Instead of calling it XYZ's national team, let's call it the best team XYZ could afford.

The speech used to be: kid you are good. You've got talent. Train hard, put in your hours and you'll make it to the national team.
Now it is: you are good. Train hard, put in your hours and if you are lucky and there isn't a new zealander who's amazing but not good enough to make it to the all blacks, you'll make it to the national team.
Sad but true.

And part of my argument is moral, true, but also practical. My 'approach' at this levels the playing field and gives smaller poorer nations a shot. It encourages development over poaching, luring, seducing, whatever you want to call it. The direction of player movement has a clear trend: players from poor/poorer countries playing for richer ones.
Do you see any Japanese/French/English born players saying: "**** this, i want to represent Tonga/Zimbabwe?" No, you do not. I think that is a shame.

I know the alleged counterexample: tons of nz born players ended up playing representing pacific island national sides. Factually correct, but the problem with that argument is that those nz born players that represent tonga/samoa/fiji are always, every single time, players who couldn't make it to the ABs. They are, poorly phrased, the scraps from nz. I'm sure there is an exception, but the trend is crystal clear.
If we could have a system in place that prevented that from happening instead of promoting it, i'd love it.


So i dont take it seriously, i just pretend at the time, to make the story more fun, like a cartoon.
I understand. The thing is, although you don't take it seriously, there is a grain of truth on how fantasy was built. The system is destroying that.

And this comes back to what we expect from that team. You seem to expect them to play very well and win and that is it (yet you mention the affinity thing).
I expect them to represent or stand for something. We can argue how much, or what does that mean, exactly. I do not have all the answers, but i know a few things i'd like: ideally he's been through our rugby system, he can speak the language, has some sympathy with the national and empathy with its people and didn't pick Argentina over another country just because it was financially convenient. That would be a start. Happy to fine tune it if need be.

Again, i think we want different, very different things (and that's ok). I'd rather lose with my own.
 
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