Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[Peat]

Arguments about fairness go every way here. It's not fair for two leagues to be outvoted by one but it is fair for 2 unions to get outvoted by 6. Its not fair that the English and French clubs make up the majority of the competition and take home less than the majority of the money, yet as noted the Irish provinces have been earning less per province recently.

And its really not fair to use the thread of taking away vital funding to give yourself a pay rise. Good business practice, but hardly fair. So... yeah, arguments about fairness are pretty overdone here.

 

[smartcooky]

Please read it again carefully.....

I did, and my comment stands.

How is "the pro 12 unions all form their own pro leagues" not the same as "dividing the Celtic League into separate competitions"?

 

[osullie6]

Hmmmm. This looks like only getting messier.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/rugby/ffr-on-collision-course-over-split-29597036.html

 

[McTallshort]

i did, and my comment stands.

How is "the pro 12 unions all form their own pro leagues" not the same as "dividing the celtic league into separate competitions"?

read it all again not just the bit thats upset you

 

[Peat]

read it all again not just the bit thats upset you

I just read it and I'm with smartcooky. Maybe you should explain what you meant better.

 

[McTallshort]

OK the point I was making was this:Currently we have a league run by unions with its priorities at logger heads with 2 leagues run by privately owned clubs who have their priorities and everything is a poor compromise. The only way we would have a competition without all this compromise would be if all the unions started pro leagues or the Anglo French embraced regional rugby I did add that this will not happen and was certainly not suggesting this is something the pro 12 unions did but was just pointing out its an imperfect system and we will just have to see what happens next.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Hmmmm. This looks like only getting messier.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/rugby/ffr-on-collision-course-over-split-29597036.html

It's about time one of the unions or the ERC showed some balls. Lots of bluster from the clubs, let's match some of it.

 

[dullonien]

It's obvious people see the division of revenue in two, or even three different ways. 1: from a league standpoint, i.e. three leagues split equally. 2: from a union standpoint, i.e. taking into account that there are 4 nations taking part in the Pro12. Or even 3: from a club standpoint, i.e. each club treated equally ignoring what nationality or league they're in.

I suppose I see it from a union standpoint.

 

[Feicarsinn]

It's obvious people see the division of revenue in two, or even three different ways. 1: from a league standpoint, i.e. three leagues split equally. 2: from a union standpoint, i.e. taking into account that there are 4 nations taking part in the Pro12. Or even 3: from a club standpoint, i.e. each club treated equally ignoring what nationality or league they're in.

I suppose I see it from a union standpoint.

I suppose one option is to give each participating union a fixed share of revenue, say 10%, then allocate the rest based on performance.

 

[smartcooky]

I suppose one option is to give each participating union a fixed share of revenue, say 10%, then allocate the rest based on performance.

I think the Celtic nations should call their bluff...agree to the qualification of the top group from the Pro12 with no protected status for teams from specific countries, and offer to divvy up the revenue on an equal share per team basis. I would expect the offer to be turned down, and then we'll see the greedy b'stards' true colours and their real agenda, which has nothing to do with qualification. It's about two things;

MONEY: More money for the greedy clubs (at the expense of the game as a whole, and most importantly,

POWER: Both the PRL and the LNR want absolute power over the players so that they can work outside the iRB regulations and deny players the releases to play for their national teams. Then they can treat them as disposable commodities, flog them till they are too injured or too broken down to play anymore.

 

[j'nuh]

MONEY: More money for the greedy clubs

It's not greedy to want your fair share. Currently, the Pro12 teams receive 52 per cent of the funding, with the French and English receiving 24 per cent each. Source: http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/death-heineken-cup-everything-you-5910008

Every club should be receiving an even share.

 

[ratsapprentice]

The English and French clubs have been fairly transparent about money being an issue for them.
They do not believe that the current set-up is anywhere near the potential a Euro cup has for revenue.

 

[smartcooky]

It's not greedy to want your fair share. Currently, the Pro12 teams receive 52 per cent of the funding, with the French and English receiving 24 per cent each. Source: http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/death-heineken-cup-everything-you-5910008

Every club should be receiving an even share.

Go back and READ the post! I'm suggesting that if they refused my suggested offer, then it shows they are greedy.

 

[smartcooky]

The English and French clubs have been fairly transparent about money being an issue for them.
They do not believe that the current set-up is anywhere near the potential a Euro cup has for revenue.

It will only be available on BT, and who is going to sign up just to watch French and English teams play each other endlessly. From what I have been hearing, BT's rugby coverage is utter crap anyway.

The variations of different teams from different countries being involved is what makes the Heineken Cup great. They will simply never be able to capture that with a Franglais snorefest. Sorry, but the AP and the Top 14 are just tedious to watch unless you have something at stake, i.e. in interest in one of the teams......Boring + boring = too boring for words.

I watch Heineken Cup for clashes like Munster v Saracens, Ospray v Leicester and Leinster v Toulon. Without match ups like those, the new competition would be worthless. If it gets off the ground (and I doubt it will) it won't be occupying any viewing time in my household.

 

[McTallshort]

It will only be available on BT, and who is going to sign up just to watch French and English teams play each other endlessly. From what I have been hearing, BT's rugby coverage is utter crap anyway.

The variations of different teams from different countries being involved is what makes the Heineken Cup great. They will simply never be able to capture that with a Franglais snorefest. Sorry, but the AP and the Top 14 are just tedious to watch unless you have something at stake, i.e. in interest in one of the teams......Boring + boring = too boring for words.

I watch Heineken Cup for clashes like Munster v Saracens, Ospray v Leicester and Leinster v Toulon. Without match ups like those, the new competition would be worthless. If it gets off the ground (and I doubt it will) it won't be occupying any viewing time in my household.

Have you been drinking or are you just trolling?

 

[Feicarsinn]

Have you been drinking or are you just trolling?

He's right actually. If you look at the complaints levelled against the Super 12/14 a few years back and the Tri Nations when they played 6 games a year was the frequency that you played the same opposition way way too high. It got boring after a while. The Heineken Cup brings a nice amount of variety seeing as you could be in Glasgow one round, Parma the next and Northampton the following. You get a nice tour of the strongest sides in Europe.

An Anglo-French competition would not only be missing some of the best sides in Europe, but it'd get boring pretty quickly. Not enough top teams to challenge for the knockout stages would mean that you'd be seeing the same fixtures in the latter stages of the competition time and time again. Meh.

 

[TrueSlawter]

It's not greedy to want your fair share. Currently, the Pro12 teams receive 52 per cent of the funding, with the French and English receiving 24 per cent each. Source: http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/death-heineken-cup-everything-you-5910008

Every club should be receiving an even share.

As someone else has pointed out 24% / 6 teams = 4% per team. (For England and France) the potential for a 7th is there of which things change to 3.42%

52% / 4 nations involved = 13% per nation.
which is 4,33% for the Irish / Welsh with only 3 in the cup or 3.25% if 4 qualify.

The Italians and Scottish get 6.9% each but they are the only real outlier as things currently stand so percentage of shares is currently fairly evenly distributed. The odd percentage difference here and there. However this is all based on if the celtic share is divided up between the 4 nations so results may vary of course.

The only way to make everyone get the same is if each team gets 4.16% of the pot each the 0.16% isn't what the English and French are after, all this fuss for that seems a bit pointless if you ask me at least. (Would like to add I'm not aware how much money 1% for example is as not all revenue goes to the teams of course)

 

[Amiga500]

This is why qualification and money distribution should be changed, giving the best teams the biggest slice of the cake.

No. Just no.

I cannot even begin to state just how wrong this is.

 

[Amiga500]

No I am saying that if you are in a group containing Zebre or Edinburgh progression is easier than being in a group containing Munster or Glasgow.

So, your only argument is on the qualification format?

 

[McTallshort]

So, your only argument is on the qualification format?

what if it is? This is what started the grumbling and is at the core of whats wrong with the current agreement.