Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[Rhondda Rudie]

I actually think the English and French clubs have legitimate gripes.The English clubs dropped a major bollock in signing the BT deal though.

 

[kingpatch]

So... still at stage 1, just the French Union openly declaring war on its clubs?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Apparently the proposed Heineken Cup next season will be all 12 Rabo sides and 8 from the top 14.

.....Sounds brilliant

 

[profitius]

These seems to be the only thread the Irish are talking their usual faeces on...

Why aren't you on the intl threads ?


Ha ha

Which countries Have you beaten this year ?

This fella has a serious Irish fetish going on! lol

 

[BasqueBete]

Shut up u thick paddy ****

 

[BasqueBete]

Not a fetish , just a dislike of all things plastic and positioned so far up its own arsehole that anything green and plastic gets a load of ****wits frothing at the mouth...

 

[LittleGuy]

I appreciate that this is a topic that is stirring up the passions guys but for about the 5th time on this thread, will the posters here refrain from the ad hominems, the "poisoning of the wells", the personal attacks, the paranoia and anger please!!!

What's especially dissapointing is it's taking away from some pretty good points being made.

 

[lucky number 7]

Not a fetish , just a dislike of all things plastic and positioned so far up its own arsehole that anything green and plastic gets a load of ****wits frothing at the mouth...

Oh Basque...tell me more about your independent nation.

 

[St George]

So... still at stage 1, just the French Union openly declaring war on its clubs?

It does all sound pretty much the same, with alot of sabre-rattling from the Pro-ERC group, just as it was when this all kicked off a few years back. Their intransigence drove a bigger wedge between the parties, which in hindsight was so unecessary seeing as they have now conceded to the finance/qualification criteria. But the one major difference now is that the 5 Unions have chosen to exclude the RFU from discussions. I find this to be a deceitful act as the RFU have never said it was on the side of the PRL/LNR group. It's an unecessary devision IMO.

Personally I have agreed with the original PRL/LNR stance, which has now been agreed and conceded by the other side. And I have not been too bothered about the governance as long as the Unions/IRB have an input. But i'm now wanting to see the 5 Unions fail due to their snub of the entire English setup.

 

[smartcooky]

It does all sound pretty much the same, with alot of sabre-rattling from the Pro-ERC group, just as it was when this all kicked off a few years back. Their intransigence drove a bigger wedge between the parties, which in hindsight was so unecessary seeing as they have now conceded to the finance/qualification criteria. But the one major difference now is that the 5 Unions have chosen to exclude the RFU from discussions. I find this to be a deceitful act as the RFU have never said it was on the side of the PRL/LNR group. It's an unecessary devision IMO.

Personally I have agreed with the original PRL/LNR stance, which has now been agreed and conceded by the other side. And I have not been too bothered about the governance as long as the Unions/IRB have an input. But i'm now wanting to see the 5 Unions fail due to their snub of the entire English setup.

But Jim, some might consider the RFU's failure to condemn PRL as tacit, silent support for them.

Comment from the RFU has been conspicuous by its absence, and a far cry from the outrage they expressed over the PRL's antics with regard to the Long Form Agreement back in 2006, where the two side went to court, the RFU won, and then beat the clubs over the head with the judge's decision.

Given that the RFU has refused to publicly support the other five unions involved in this debacle, I don't find it at all surprising that they have been snubbed (not that I agree with it at all, I'm just saying I can understand it).

 

[Amiga500]

That's my reading of it too. It's all well and good the FFR and WRU supporting ERC but unless LNR and RRW back it, it's no different to the current situation. What remains to be seen is how much sway the Welsh and French Union/Federation hold over their clubs.

It has changed things a bit.

1. The FFR will not back the RCC cross-border competition
2. The WRU will not back the RCC cross-border competition.
3. Therefore the IRB will not back the RCC cross-border competition.
4. Additionally, the unions have the capacity to put on a tournament next year - it may be a bit of a farce - but it will happen if they want to make it happen.
5. The RCC cannot now make this same commitment.
6. 4 & 5 have all sorts of cascading effects for sponsorship, TV deals, fixture organisation etc.
7. The RRW do not have the financial clout to survive without the WRU. If the WRU say jump, the RRW can squeal, shout and complain, but ultimately, have to ask "how high?"


The Irish, Italian and Scottish teams are present. The Welsh will be pressganged into it by the WRU.

The T14 clubs do not have to agree to participate - so worse case scenario is the FFR cobble together regional teams. But they can do that, it'll be ****, but there will be a game of sorts. However, if a few T14 teams go for the HEC (Toulon/Biarritz?) then I expect the others won't want to miss out on the financial advantages they are getting...

 

[Amiga500]

But the one major difference now is that the 5 Unions have chosen to exclude the RFU from discussions. I find this to be a deceitful act as the RFU have never said it was on the side of the PRL/LNR group. It's an unecessary devision IMO.

Sort of - but it does mean the RFU can take a better half-way house position to be a mediator between the two in the future.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Word is that 5 French clubs have already agreed to play in the Heineken Cup. More are expected to follow.

Could the RFU use this as an opportunity to wrestle control of England's top players? Sky have the rights to the RFU Championship and Heineken Cup. Championship clubs are denied entry into the Premiership due to restrictive promotion requirements so there's bound to be no love lost there. Do the Championship clubs jump into bed with the RFU and enter the Heineken Cup since PRL are contractually prevented from doing so? This could be facilitated by the RFU centrally contracting English players, see the Union gain more control and be a peace offering from the RFU to the other unions.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Can't see that ever happening, to be honest.
Even if the RFU did pump a load of cash into the Championship sides, and helped them poach the best players from the Aviva, it'd be years until they were competitive.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Can't see that ever happening, to be honest.
Even if the RFU did pump a load of cash into the Championship sides, and helped them poach the best players from the Aviva, it'd be years until they were competitive.

I agree with you, it's highly unlikely. However if the RFU were looking to get more influence over the clubs, now's the best shot they'll ever have.

Let's say, for example, the RFU strategically contract England internationals and they are placed with clubs with either history or potential - Bristol, Leeds, Nottingham, Cornish Pirates - and enter these teams into the ERC run Heineken Cup. The Premiership clubs would have to take notice and negotiate with the RFU to have them placed back with Premiership teams. The price for this would be that the RFU more control over the running of Premeirship teams and in turn, Premiership teams come back into the ERC fold. Unlikely but if ever they're going to make a move it's now.

 

[Packman]

I've been critical of the RFU's stance for months. The RFU picked a side through inaction and the other unions took notice. They have no one to blame but themselves. You even had the IRB pledging their support to a true European club competition and refusing to recognise PRL and LNR's competition. The FFR (who have the support of the French government and French law) stated they will not recognise the break away competition. All we needed was the RFU to release a similar statement and we would have cut at least a month off this fiasco. I think there are too many ex-club old-boys in the RFU with dual loyalties. In my eyes, the RFU has no credibility in the matter and need to act if they want to prove me wrong.

As for the English players. they've refused to take responsibility for the game as usual. So now their employers have pretty much left them playing with themselves. if they can't be bothered to organise through their player's association and force the PRL back into the fold then I have no sympathy for them.

I think its hypocritical of the RFU to whine about being left out of the European cup when that's exactly what their bed fellows PRL had planned for half of the professional clubs in Italy and Scotland. Its not looking so clever now the shoe is on the other foot though, is it. Well you were happy to hold a pillow over the struggling SRU's face while greasing the pole that Italy is trying to climb up to become a true European rugby power. so why are you so upset about being left out of Europe?

As a Englishman who just spent Friday thinking proudly about our world cup triumph ten years ago, I will always fully support the international game, and speak out against fat millionaire egomaniacs who are only interested in turning English rugby into poofball and the England side into side show that'll struggle to beat the USA in ten years time.

I want a strong European competition that will forge the best England players for the national side, that means playing against the the very best and if Leinster beat us then we don't try to bring them down to our level, WE RISE TO THEIRS! Same goes for the Scots and the Italians, if they play these teams then they will improve and a strong Scotland will spur us on to even higher excellence, because we'll be damned if we're going to lose to them! PRL just don't get it. its just not on their agenda, As far as i'm concerned the lot of their can go invent "premiereship rugby" and sod off tomorrow because they've been a cancer in union since some idiot decided it'll be a good ideal to introduce money into this sport. When the hell has that ever been a good idea? Money men always ruin it, be it punk music, Madagascar, horror movies, the businessmen always screw it up because it always becomes about the money and that's why us rugby fans won't get a European cup next season. You guys are morons for supporting PRL. Its nothing to do with national pride or England vs Ireland, you just don't get it either, do you. Do you even remember why you got into rugby in the first place? its about the game, the hits! the tries! Two Countries getting as close to going to war as you can in sport witoout people getting hurt. It was not for glorified F****** rugby monopoly. Gordon Gecko can f*** off outa of my sport whenever he damn well pleases!

 

[Bpw]

as it looks like the prl clubs contract with bt sport won't be fulfilled. can/would bt come after them for breach of contract? (I am not a lawyer obviously)
without money from European competition I would imagine a few clubs could it into difficulties.
the really seem to have made a balls of this. who would have thought the French would have turned a bit flaky.

 

[smartcooky]

http://www.sudouest.fr/2013/11/27/r...er-les-anglais-pour-se-sauver-1242108-773.php

Could a French poster please translate this.

In my limited understanding of the French language, this reads like the volcano is about to erupt.

If I am reading this correctly, it looks like the death-knell for the Anglo-French Competition/Rugby Champions Cup. I'd give anything to be a French-speaking fly on the wall at THAT meeting!

Assuming that it comes to a vote, if it goes along the lines suggested here, it will be 10 - 4 in favour of sticking with the FFR (and therefore the ERC and the Heineken Cup).

If that happens, PRL's gambit will have backfired on them, and they will be dead in the water, effectively shutting the Premiership Clubs out of Europe for at least 2015.

 

[LittleGuy]

University French is a long time ago for me, but it mainly seems that 10 of the clubs can't be arsed to fight the FFR they might not nessecarily have been upset by the PRL proposal or have any huge love of the ERC but don't think it's worth going to war over and only 4 clubs are ready to kick up a huge stink over it.

Though I would keep in mind that the four clubs willing to fight are all big teams and two of the ten who are either wanting to stay with ERC or can't be arsed to make a big deal of it are going to be relegated next season and therefore it dosen't really matter to them anyway.

 

[smartcooky]

http://www.thescore.ie/heineken-cup-top-14-1195504-Nov2013/

[TEXTAREA]THE PRESIDENTS OF the Top 14 clubs are set to meet close to Paris on Thursday to make a final decision on their future involvement in European club rugby.

The PRL [Premier Rugby Ltd.] has long counted the French clubs as their ally and partner in forming the new Rugby Champions Cup next season, having received vocal support from Paul Goze, the president of the LNR [Ligue Nationale de Rugby] – the umbrella organisation that represents the interests of the Top 14 teams.

However, that agreement is understood to be on the brink of ruin this evening, with strong suggestions that the LNR will tomorrow cede to the wishes of French rugby's governing body, the FFR [Fédération Française de Rugby], and agree to play on in the Heineken Cup next season.

Pierre Camou has been insistent that the LNR has been completely ignoring French rugby law by agreeing to play in the Rugby Champions Cup, and it seems now that the Top 14 clubs' presidents may admit to defeat in this particular battle.

The Top 14 clubs are unhappy with the governing rule the FFR has over them and an agreement is in place for the LNR to assume more of the organizational responsibility for French club rugby with the signing of a new accord between the parties on the 7th of December.

However, FFR president Pierre Camou is threatening to renege on that agreement if the Top 14 clubs do not agree to remain an in ERC [European Rugby Cup]-run competition next season. Further complicating the issue from the LNR's point of view is the fact that the Top 14 TV rights are set to be lucratively renewed next month, a move which the FFR could also hinder.

Leading French rugby journalist Arnaud David, writing in Sud Ouest, suggests that Toulouse, Clermont, Montpellier and Jacky Lorenzetti's Racing Métro are ready to engage the FFR in 'a conflict', but says that the other 10 clubs feel they must look after their own priorities rather than continuing to support the English.

The ERC, led by the Irish, Scottish, Italian and Welsh regions has conceded to exactly the demands that the French clubs made when they insisted they would leave the Heineken Cup and it now appears that the LNR will fall in line with the FFR.

How the English clubs react to that would be a fascinating story of its own.
[/TEXTAREA]

I think this more ore less summarizes the French article I posted earlier.

If the LNR really does give in to the FFR tomorrow, then that really is "Game Over" for the Rugby Champions Cup.