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Jake White on SA rugby

gaston le gaff

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no i dont think its going to be difficult or complicated but it just means more French players and less SH players up to now it has been a fine system but in the coming seasons there will be pts deducted and that the clubs will not accept so they will have to change, its difficult enough staying in the top 6 but if you have the possibility to have pts deucted they will have to have the majority of French players on the team sheet. maybe that means poorer SH players, i see where they are coming from but the French club rugby is so competitive the owners or Presidents have the brakes on as far as National selection is concerned.
 

Bruce_ma_goose

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But the best schools at rugby are generally a form of public school, or former model c's. They are government schools but have additional fees to provide a bit more. These include schools like Paarl Boys, Paarl Gym, Paul Roos, Waterkloof, Outenequa (sorry, I am sure I butchered that), Grey PE, Grey College,Tygerberg, Glenwood, Wynberg, SACS and Rondebosch to name a few.

Thanks for the info. I'll admit to not knowing the first thing about the school system of South Africa so its interesting to have the distinction between private and government schools (I don't think we have any equivalent of government schools up here). Are these schools generally filled with kids from more advantaged backgrounds due to the fees? Do they award scholarships to kids from poorer backgrounds (of all ethnic groups, including whites) like US colleges to incorporate top potential talent into the rugby system?

In response to another point in a post above, the perception in Scotland historically is not that private schools "keep the game alive", but that they strangle it as the same people who come through these private schools will run the Rugby Union and "look after their own" as we say. There is a perception historically that individual talent that is not processed through the established private schools with strong rugby teams will be wilfully overlooked in favour of kids who may have less natural ability, but have the "better" school on their CV. This combined with private schools understandably having superior coaching and facilities has historically made the game infuriatingly insular in Scotland, limited the potential playing pool and has contributed to the malaise of the last 20 years where we are having to shamefully scrounge around the southern hemisphere for anyone with a Scottish granny, or that we can lure to become a "project player".

The insular nature of the sport is definitely on the way out in Scotland, so hopefully project players will go the way of the Dodo in the next decade even if Pichot doesn't manage to get his way and make it harder (sadly another South African, Cornell Du Preez, is rumoured to be making his Scotland debut in November following naturalisation (or whatever you call it)).
 

welshglory

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Investment in grassroots clubs is the key to growth. Private schools helps on the performance side and it runs without union funding as well, but if you keep on the path and restrict your playing pool and accessibility to all backgrounds then you're only shooting yourself in the foot long term. Not to mention the jobs for old boys mentality which Brucemagoose mentions. Big problems in Australia and Scotland there, i would imagine South Africa as well.

Wales is struggling a lot in this regard with clubs historically being the main provider of talent, but since funding is going more towards the top level the grassroots clubs are dying and this could have consequences in the future. There aren't that many rugby playing schools in Wales.
 

saulan

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Thanks for the info. I'll admit to not knowing the first thing about the school system of South Africa so its interesting to have the distinction between private and government schools (I don't think we have any equivalent of government schools up here). Are these schools generally filled with kids from more advantaged backgrounds due to the fees? Do they award scholarships to kids from poorer backgrounds (of all ethnic groups, including whites) like US colleges to incorporate top potential talent into the rugby system?

In response to another point in a post above, the perception in Scotland historically is not that private schools "keep the game alive", but that they strangle it as the same people who come through these private schools will run the Rugby Union and "look after their own" as we say. There is a perception historically that individual talent that is not processed through the established private schools with strong rugby teams will be wilfully overlooked in favour of kids who may have less natural ability, but have the "better" school on their CV. This combined with private schools understandably having superior coaching and facilities has historically made the game infuriatingly insular in Scotland, limited the potential playing pool and has contributed to the malaise of the last 20 years where we are having to shamefully scrounge around the southern hemisphere for anyone with a Scottish granny, or that we can lure to become a "project player".

The insular nature of the sport is definitely on the way out in Scotland, so hopefully project players will go the way of the Dodo in the next decade even if Pichot doesn't manage to get his way and make it harder (sadly another South African, Cornell Du Preez, is rumoured to be making his Scotland debut in November following naturalisation (or whatever you call it)).

Yep, private schools will generally have the children of successfuly South Africans, in business and politics. In general it is not very diverse, but they do look for talented rugby players and give them full scholarships (generally get found through U13 Craven Week, can't remember it's real name). The former model c's are a lot more mixed, my school was probably about 50% white and our rugby teams were really diverse, my A team throughout the years at school generally had 5 white players. These schools also offer scholarships to boys for sports, for example Notshe was at our school on a full school and hostel bursary. It is a mixed bag though, I remember playing Dale at a rugby festival and their team probably had about 2 players out of 23 that were black (who I think were both locks), and then there will be others where out of 15 there are 10 to 12 white players.

Then you get the government funded only schools, who don't have enough funds to get the right number of teachers in the class and as I said can teach up to 50 students in a class if not more. There will generally be no white students at these schools, and the best chance the rugby players at those schools would have to get noticed in rugby is to play for a local club team and hope that they get noticed by a bigger school or somehow make it into a provincial representative team.

I think what Saru has done in the past is hold rugby clinics in the areas of these government schools and tried to support some schools and clubs, but whatever they have done has really not been effective enough.
 

mdaclarke

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As an Non South African but lover of rugby, the Quota system makes me angry. I don't see why the IRB allow it. The springboks are one of world rugby's best assets and in the long run, they are the only country that can compete with the All Blacks. Players and Coaches should be picked on merit and merit alone. I actually think that more damage is done by having incompetent coaches than having inferior players.

I understand the desire to transform rugby but it is being done the wrong way. Invest in the schools, make rugby the main sport in all schools, pick out the talent at school level and support and nurture them. Then in 10 years transformation will happen. There is no point forcing the issue, it makes the springboks and the quota players/coaches a laughing stock.

The springboks should be the biggest draw in the world rugby, the biggest prize, the biggest money spinner. If they die. World rugby loses so so much.

Don't let the ANC do to South African Rugby, what Mugabe did to Zimbabwean cricket.
 

TheOvalBall

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When the RWC2019 Bok squad is announced having 50% black players, and World Rugby doesn't do something, then there should be riots.
 

BPM

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As an Non South African but lover of rugby, the Quota system makes me angry. I don't see why the IRB allow it. The springboks are one of world rugby's best assets and in the long run, they are the only country that can compete with the All Blacks. Players and Coaches should be picked on merit and merit alone. I actually think that more damage is done by having incompetent coaches than having inferior players.

I understand the desire to transform rugby but it is being done the wrong way. Invest in the schools, make rugby the main sport in all schools, pick out the talent at school level and support and nurture them. Then in 10 years transformation will happen. There is no point forcing the issue, it makes the springboks and the quota players/coaches a laughing stock.

The springboks should be the biggest draw in the world rugby, the biggest prize, the biggest money spinner. If they die. World rugby loses so so much.

Don't let the ANC do to South African Rugby, what Mugabe did to Zimbabwean cricket.

As another non South African, I also disagree with the quota system. I understand the concept, but I can't see how it can be achieved without positive discrimination, which is clearly not the answer.

I absolutely agree that "Players and Coaches should be picked on merit and merit alone" and it would be an absolute tragedy if the Bok rugby tradition were to die. However, I don't understand why the Boks are "in the long run the only country that can compete with the All Blacks"? or why they should the be "the biggest draw in world rugby, the biggest prize, the biggest money spinner"?

Of course, you're entitled to your opinion, but they're odd statements to make without context.

Putting national loyalties aside, I want test rugby to be as competitive as possible. As much as I respect New Zealand, I don't think they're dominance is good for the sport and I'd like to see the strongest possible Bok side - and a stronger Wallabies side for that matter.
 

mdaclarke

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Sorry I didn't word it very well. But it is my understanding that the Boks have the largest natural resource of players and the South African Rugby Market is the biggest money spinner for world rugby in TV revenues and Ticket Sales. They are world rugby's golden goose, the IRB need to ensure they are not damaged as rugby will be the loser.

I grew up in the 90s and 00s. The first world cup I remember was 1995 and I always considered the Boks to be the team to beat, even more so than the all blacks. I still believe that in the long run if anyone is going to challenge the all blacks long term it will be the Boks.
 
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