England 24/25 Depth Chart

[BPM]

I'd back that third choice XV against most other nations' thirds.

As I said on the other thread, look at Ireland's squad minus their Lions. It's nothing special at all: https://www.irishrugby.ie/2025/06/04/ireland-mens-squad-named-for-summer-series/

We'll see what France's 3rd choice players look like this afternoon.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Sooo about that depth

 

[Ddanno]

Sooo about that depth

Yeah that went well eh.

I do think it's more tactics than anything, we just kicked the leather off it because our forward carries were powderpuff and Spencer was doing half a Youngs impression

 

[Geordie]

These games are critical now...we can actually see those who are genuine prospects and those who are not.

Just going on the reports of yesterday there's a few we can finally say just aren't good enough.

 

[BPM]

Sooo about that depth

Judge it on one game if you like, but personally I feel like the A games are more of a fair representation of actual depth. We've done well in those vs. comparable opposition.

Saturday's game was **** but it was mostly established players stinking the place out rather than the 'depth' players. Squad regulars like Ford, Slade and Coles were considerably worse than the debutants.

 

[BPM]

These games are critical now...we can actually see those who are genuine prospects and those who are not.

Just going on the reports of yesterday there's a few we can finally say just aren't good enough.

Fair, but a good few of those are 'stalwarts' or at least squad regulars.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Who where the squad regulars that didn't look good enough?

 

[BPM]

I mean I literally wrote Ford, Slade and Coles. Could easily have added Spencer.

In Ford's case, it was a poor performance from a very good player.

OTOH, Slade has had too many poor performances to be a guaranteed pick and Coles and Spencer have never played well for England. Add in Dombrandt too if you like, he's never matched his Quins performances for England.

I'd have no issue moving on from Slade, Spencer and Dombrandt permanently. Coles is still pretty young so I wouldn't close the door on him completely, but with younger locks coming through he's unlikely to get too many more chances.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I mean I literally wrote Ford, Slade and Coles. Could easily have added Spencer.

In Ford's case, it was a poor performance from a very good player.

OTOH, Slade has had too many poor performances to be a guaranteed pick and Coles and Spencer have never played well for England. Add in Dombrandt too if you like, he's never matched his Quins performances for England.

I'd have no issue moving on from Slade, Spencer and Dombrandt permanently. Coles is still pretty young so I wouldn't close the door on him completely, but with younger locks coming through he's unlikely to get too many more chances.

I'm not going to argue your points above but with Ford as a third choice FH and Coles and 4th choice lock, I really don't see an issue with that. When we are looking at third and 4th choice players there is always going to be a drop off.

I thought Coles was ok personally, didn't shine but didn't play amazing. Did as he's always done for England which is lots of good lock things and then gave away a penalty or two that wasn't needed.

As for Slade, he's supposed to be 1st choice 13 (or maybe 2nd or whatever) and that I have an issue with as he isn't a cos rent performer but we lack experience in the centres due to multiple coaches choices.

 

[BPM]

I don't actually think there is a drop off from the Smiths to Ford. In fact there's possibly even an argument to say he might actually be our best 10. However, I thought he was poor at the weekend.

As I said earlier - a poor performance from a very good player.

I don't think it's harsh to support moving on from Slade, Spencer and Dombrandt though.

Coles is a funny one. I feel like some of the penalties come from trying too hard to impress but unless he's doing enough good things to balance out the costly errors, he's never going to be more than a back up.

 

[Geordie]

Clarke has a chance on this tour to show what he can do.

Is there anything on Kpoku Jr? I think if he does one more season in France he becomes qualified for the whatever it's called in the French League. So he might stay for that and then come back.

I also think they may be hoping Burrows, Lewis Chessum, Sodike etc etc all develop as hoped and come through bloody quicky.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Kpoku still has two years on his contract but has a get out clause at the end of next season, only if he signs for an English side though

If anyone wants him this year they've gotta pay like 500k or something absurd (though that's clearly just initial negotiation BS as they wanted 1m for Farrell and ended up with 200k if rumours are to be believed)

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Ford form since Leicester away second half has dropped off a cliff somewhat

Honestly all the sale players looked tired from then on

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I mean I literally wrote Ford, Slade and Coles. Could easily have added Spencer.

In Ford's case, it was a poor performance from a very good player.

OTOH, Slade has had too many poor performances to be a guaranteed pick and Coles and Spencer have never played well for England. Add in Dombrandt too if you like, he's never matched his Quins performances for England.

I'd have no issue moving on from Slade, Spencer and Dombrandt permanently. Coles is still pretty young so I wouldn't close the door on him completely, but with younger locks coming through he's unlikely to get too many more chances.

Time moves on quickly. Dombrandt's 28 and Coles is 26 in September. If you haven't made a real impact by then, you still might but it's very much odds against. Even Isiekwe who was a teenager last time I looked is now 27.

On lock depth and without wanting to hark back to 03 I'm going to hark back to 03. The locks we had, at varying career stages, were Johnson who went on to win 84 caps, Kay 62 and Grewcock 69, replaced by Shaw 71.

Itoje's surpassed those numbers, but is nearly 31 and won't be around for ever. Chessum possibly might get there if he can stay fit (and out of the back row), but otherwise who else? Martin seems too injury prone to think about in those terms at the moment and beyond them it's just lots of might bes and never quites. We need a couple of big guys to really put their hands up and demand selection rather than having lots of largely interchangeable options.

 

[Geordie]

Kpoku still has two years on his contract but has a get out clause at the end of next season, only if he signs for an English side though

If anyone wants him this year they've gotta pay like 500k or something absurd (though that's clearly just initial negotiation BS as they wanted 1m for Farrell and ended up with 200k if rumours are to be believed)

So playing in France next season for Kpoku would make sense. So he wont be available to England, and hes the most developed of the U20 monsters.

 

[Geordie]

Time moves on quickly. Dombrandt's 28 and Coles is 26 in September. If you haven't made a real impact by then, you still might but it's very much odds against. Even Isiekwe who was a teenager last time I looked is now 27.

On lock depth and without wanting to hark back to 03 I'm going to hark back to 03. The locks we had, at varying career stages, were Johnson who went on to win 84 caps, Kay 62 and Grewcock 69, replaced by Shaw 71.

Itoje's surpassed those numbers, but is nearly 31 and won't be around for ever. Chessum possibly might get there if he can stay fit (and out of the back row), but otherwise who else? Martin seems too injury prone to think about in those terms at the moment and beyond them it's just lots of might bes and never quites. We need a couple of big guys to really put their hands up and demand selection rather than having lots of largely interchangeable options.

I think this is why the management team will REALLY be praying a few of the U20 batch come through well.

3 of them all 6'8 and 19 stone plus, then maybe Tigers can reboot Lewis Chessum aswell. If Clarke can show up well in Argentina this summer in the tight head lock role then in the not so distant future things "could" look very rosey. But its a wait and see...

Others, well i dont know where Ben Bamber is...hes a regular starter for Sale, a massive guy. Doesnt seem to be on the radar with England though.

In the meantime we tour with Ewells in the squad.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

In the meantime we tour with Ewells in the squad.

It's up to the newcomers to convince that they're better than him. Simple as.

On Itoje. He turns 33 during the 27 RWC and I wonder whether he'll call time on England after that. I suspect he'd be fit enough to carry on - his fitness record is incredible, but the guy's been on a non stop same old treadmill for years. Multiple Lion including captain, Eng captain, one club man with plenty of silverware. The Eng appearance record might be an incentive, but by that stage he'll have nothing left to prove. Maybe more relevant, he's also got an inquiring mind that may well want to look at new experiences before it's too late. Wouldn't shock me at all, esp if England do well in the RWC.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I mean with Ewels I don't feel it's on the newcomers to prove it now.

He's proven he's not at this level so what's there to overtake?

 

[LIONSxv]

I watched Saturday's game last night having caught most of the second half
Some observations France looked fitter, although not as powerful.

Apart from the cluster **** that was the last 5 mins they lived off scraps. They also looked better coached although FG gets hate in France he is a much better coach than SB. If the two coaches were swapped that Eng team probably put 40 on them

Ford was poor, so was Hill and particularly Slade. You can't have a player in Slade who only in the side as he can play multi positions if he not playing well in any of them.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I mean with Ewels I don't feel it's on the newcomers to prove it now.

He's proven he's not at this level so what's there to overtake?

Whether we like it or not he's in the squad and so has a reasonable place in the pecking order.

At the end of the day he's been a very good club player for a long time and has 30 odd caps, some of which have been OK even if the reds have finished any serious international aspirations. The newcomers haven't yet got either - not disputing at all that they may have higher potential ceilings, and if SB wants to pick on potential that's fine. But at this moment in time it's hard to argue that they're better senior level players and as the youngsters progress they will simply need to be better than their competition.