Knock on and forward pass undefined?

[Umaga's Witness]

Forward passes arent necessarily about necessity. Most of them are actually about poor execution.
Poor execution of a pass in the playing area could be a forward pass. Whether it's in the in goal or the field of play is irrelevant.

Interestingly enough, probably the longest forward pass in the history of the game came from an ingoal pass.

I think their point is more that forward passes are not part of the game because the people who invented and refined the game decided it should be a game about moving toward the score area with ball in hand or through kicking. Once you are in the score area, moving toward the dead ball line doesn't make you more likely to score compared to moving toward the try line.

The pass you referred to was from their own in goal, not from the score area (the oppositions in goal)

 

[Umaga's Witness]

Forward passes arent necessarily about necessity. Most of them are actually about poor execution.
Poor execution of a pass in the playing area could be a forward pass. Whether it's in the in goal or the field of play is irrelevant.

Interestingly enough, probably the longest forward pass in the history of the game came from an ingoal pass.

I think their point is more that forward passes are not part of the game because the people who invented and refined the game decided it should be a game about moving toward the score area with ball in hand or through kicking. Once you are in the score area, moving toward the dead ball line doesn't make you more likely to score compared to moving toward the try line

The pass you were referring to was from their own in goal, not their score area (the oppositions in goal)

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Disagree. A forward pass is a forward pass. The fact that its perceived impact appears to be less when it happens within the in-goal is anecdotal at best.

 

[smartcooky]

This is one that annoys me. I think its exaggerated how far the ball would go forward just on the momentum of the moving player

No it isn't

Its an immeasurable factor

No it isn't, but it actually doesn't need to be measured, because the ball has the momentum of the player who is carrying it.

If that player, especially a back, is running at, say a 100m in 15 seconds pace (not unreasonable) then the player is running at over six and a half metres per second (6.7 m/s to be precise) and that means the ball MUST also have that momentum since the player is holding it. These are FACTS; not the Laws of Rugby, the Laws of Physics; simple, 8th Grade (Year 13) school physics.

This means the player passing the ball, just to throw the directly backwards to a player behind him, must throw the ball backwards at over 6.7 m/s to cancel that momentum. If you think that is hard, then wait, there's more; it gets harder, the wider the pass is either side of straight behind,

A pass at 45° has to be thrown at 9.5 m/s (35 km/h).
A flatter pass at, say 22.5° behind level with the passer, has to be thrown at 17.5 m/s (63 km/hr)
Reduce that to what would a reasonable pass angle of 10° and the speed of the pass required to cancel ball carrier's momentum is 38.6 m/s (139 km/h).
A flat pass of 1° behind level has to be thrown at literally supersonic speed; 384 m/s (1380 km/hr)

and I would be much happier if they ignored any potential momentum and only allowed passes that actually went backwards.in relation to the pitch. I've seen some commentators try to use the position of the passer,in relation to the ball, when caught , as proof of backward/forward pass, but this doesn't take into account the backward momentum the passer has applied to the ball.
It would simplify things if they totally ignored momentum.

No you would not be happy at all, because the game would be unplayable at anything beyond walking pace.

 

[smartcooky]

so, a knock on or forward pass ("throw forward") can occur in the field of play, according to the laws. And there are even videos for each. But it doesn't actually seem to define them.

I get annoyed when I see a pass or knock initially go backward but then bounce forward and gets called a forward pass or knock on. To me it shouldn't, but given how often it happens I thought I better check the rules. ..... there aren't any.

Please prove me wrong.

Also, where does it say a drop kick isn't a knock on?

And where does it say you can fumble the ball forward as long as it doesn't touch the ground or another player?

And the thing about how a pass can travel forward if by the momentum of the passer running forward, as long as it is passed backward out of the hand?

Maybe I am reading the abbreviated rules?

UW, it is defined, you are just looking in the wrong part of the Law book.

Prior to 2018, the Definitions appeared at the head of the appropriate Law, however, since 2018, most of those defintions have been moved to a dedicated "Definitions" section at the front of the Law book

Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player
hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes
forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can
catch it.

Throw forward: When a player throws or passes the ball forward i.e. if the arms of the player
passing the ball move forward.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

UW, it is defined, you are just looking in the wrong part of the Law book.

Prior to 2018, the Definitions appeared at the head of the appropriate Law, however, since 2018, most of those defintions have been moved to a dedicated "Definitions" section at the front of the Law book

Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player
hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes
forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can
catch it.

Throw forward: When a player throws or passes the ball forward i.e. if the arms of the player
passing the ball move forward.

Thanks, I worked it out eventually. I'm glad to know it's a recent change, makes me less embarrassed given I've looked at the laws many times in the past so had reason to expect to find it under the law number