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Nation Eligibilty Catch-All Thread

TRF_Olyy

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Not sure how true it is, as I saw it on Twitter, but apparently WR didn't start double checking eligibility until 2018 (i.e. for qualification for the 2019 RWC), before that they just took the Union's word for it, even after "Grannygate"
 

Geordiefalcon

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Guys your all forgetting the "non eligible Grandparent" rule is an agreed Eligibility clause created for Italy and Wales.
 

Bruce_ma gooshvili

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Apparently the residency rules were more lax back then, so he would only have been an ineligible player in RWC 2003 and not 2007 onwards (which in fairness the article suggests). So it is even less relevant to the present day.
 

Reiser99

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Definitely feels like a case of they got away with it. I reckon you would find a lot more cases across the sport from back then if you looked closely enough. Question though, would it really benefit rugby now to retrospectively punish teams now, especially when it involves players who retired years ago.
 

Cruz_del_Sur

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Question though, would it really benefit rugby now to retrospectively punish teams now, especially when it involves players who retired years ago.
Absolutely, 100%, yes.
I don't think you guys fully grasp the disdain and lack of credibility these sorts of things create in tier 2+. Again, look at what Spain did and the punishment they received. You can sugarcoat it the way you want and try to rationalize why it's not worth making a big fuss over such things now but if players, teams and unions get away with it it is only because the authorities let them.

And Italy is not the only one who's done something like this as far as i understand.

The scrutiny and leniency with which these issues appear to be treated doesn't seem to be the same across the board. That is a tragedy, a serious one, and should addressed as such.

I sincerely think, not all, but a LOT of you underestimate gigantically the effort some people make to put their nation's team in the world cup. Theirs, their teams and their federations' dream is just to hear their national anthem in a world cup.
 

die_mole

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Spain had a $50,000 suspended fine for the first offense that was activated upon their second infraction.
I feel like that would be a worthy punishment for Italy.
Not sure how true it is, as I saw it on Twitter, but apparently WR didn't start double checking eligibility until 2018 (i.e. for qualification for the 2019 RWC), before that they just took the Union's word for it, even after "Grannygate"
Think about how much in our world we just rely on people being truthful on. I'm sure it's a fair amount of work to doublecheck all this stuff.
 

Which Tyler

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Spain had a $50,000 suspended fine for the first offense that was activated upon their second infraction.
I feel like that would be a worthy punishment for Italy.

Think about how much in our world we just rely on people being truthful on. I'm sure it's a fair amount of work to doublecheck all this stuff.
That's the precedent, and seems fair.
Though I'd suggest that there ought to be a statue of limitations as well - given that this offence (if true) was 20 years ago (wasn't Spain 2018 uncovered inside a month?), and utterly irrelevant to anything happening currently (even without ancestry, he's have qualified for Italy by September 2004 on residency). Matches after he qualified would use the precedent set by Brett Sinkinson, who was only barred from playing for Wales until he'd completed his residency.

I'd suggest that this particular case is dumped in the bin of "things were different, and we've tightened things up since then"
 

die_mole

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They were kicked out of the WC!
the games in which he participated in were made null and void. That resulted in them failing to qualify for the World Cup.

What do you do in this case? You have to decide at what point he was eligible to play for Italy which looks like after RWC 2003. Since Italy was AQ the only games he would be ineligible for is 2003. So that means they shouldn't have qualified for RWC 2007 and that is it. As Bruce said this has nothing to do with their qualification for 2023.

I mean you can strike them from the record books but that would be a bit like crossing out the names of cyclists or weightlifters; everyone knew what happened.
 

Cruz_del_Sur

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the games in which he participated in were made null and void. That resulted in them failing to qualify for the World Cup.
Which for every practical purpose resulted in them being unable to play the world cup.

It's amazing the double standard i read here. 'This was 2 centuries ago, let it slide' when it comes to Italy, but no one cries 'jesus, spain would have won that game with their third side regardless'.
They could have fielded you and me and the result would have been the same. But that is not the point.

Spain ****** up and the punishment was severe. Period.

What do you do in this case?
You forbid Italy from playing 2023 world cup, at least. You show the world that eligibility is to be taken seriously and there are consequences for those who disregard, fail to control/uphold or violate those rules.


I mean you can strike them from the record books but that would be a bit like crossing out the names of cyclists or weightlifters; everyone knew what happened.
Not true. Unions are virtually everlasting and they ****** up too. Punish the union.
See how that raises the standard of the checks and balances they keep regarding the eligibility of their players.
 

Cruz_del_Sur

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Have you got a time machine, so that we can expel Italy from the 2003 RWC?
Imagine a murderer saying: 'have you got a time machine so that we can prevent me from murdering your daughter? No? Then let it slide, or just apply a fine. 50k quid? Would you like cash or card?'
Not a nice view.

No, i don't have a time machine, but i can suggest a punishment that would make them and other unions think 10 times before they field a player that is not supposed to be there.
 

die_mole

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I said to punish the union by fining them.

They didn't break the eligibility rules when they qualified for the 2023 RWC. You can't just make up more rules to make up for the fact they got away with something.
Imagine a murderer saying: 'have you got a time machine so that we can prevent me from murdering your daughter? No? Then let it slide, or just apply a fine. 50k quid? Would you like cash or card?'
Not a nice view.

No, i don't have a time machine, but i can suggest a punishment that would make them and other unions think 10 times before they field a player that is not supposed to be there.
considering almost all crimes/torts (other than murder which I wouldn't compare to fielding an ineligible player, rather I'd say it's fraud) have statutes of limitations, they would face no repercussions whatsoever
 

Scotty

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Which for every practical purpose resulted in them being unable to play the world cup
Yes but their punishment was void results that the player played in and a fine. Cant really void results because its to far in the past so all you can really do is a big fine for them.

With spain It led to them not making the world cup but in no way were they kicked out of it therefore no grounds to ban Italy from any future world cup qualification.
 

Bruce_ma gooshvili

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And another Italian player, Orquera, who appears to have mistaken Italian citizenship (in Italy great grandparent permits you to apply for citizneship) for eligibility who played in RWC 2011.


Again, sufficiently far in the past it doesn't apply to 2023. But if they can unearth anyone from RWC 2019 this would get very interesting (although WR might have been having a closer involvement in the verification process at that time).
 
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die_mole

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David Sisi, Sebastian Negri, Sergio Parisse, and Callum Braley all qualified through ancestry and were on the RWC 2019. As someone who is pro chaos I think they should all be investigated thoroughly.
 

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