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Nationality Debate

What Should Be The Rules Regarding Nationality?

  • Players should be able to play for any country they like

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The current rules of 3 year residency are enough for a non-native

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The current rules are good but the residency period should be extended

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Representing a country at junior level commits you to them for life.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • You should only be allowed to play in your country of origin, in which for example you've been born/

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0
I agree with Sir Speedy. It seems foolish to me that a player of Regan King's quality is left out in the cold purely because the All Blacks decided to be greedy and give him the one cap. Similarly Isa Nacewa's chances of becoming an All Black were ruined by a couple of minutes of game time as a substition for Fiji in the RWC '03.

I agree that players shouldn't be allowed to 'whore' themselves around, and should show loyalty to the country they're thinking about playing for. On the other hand, a lot of players are taken advantage of at a young age, and are later left regretting their decision.

I think that ideally certain players should be able to take their case to the IRB. That way it doesn't get out of hand, and those who are really keen to play for their 'adopted' country or whatever have the chance to have their meaningless cap(s) ignored. Anymore then 5 caps for a country, however, and they shouldn't be allowed to take their case to the IRB.

Hopefully it would also mean more Pacific Islanders ended up playing for their native countries. In saying that, Sitiveni Sitivatu is the only player who has really turned his back on his native country in New Zealand, so to speak, and most of the Islanders in the ABs camp were born here or moved at an early age.
 
Well, you should play for the country where you have been living the last five years and you don't have any cap behind you than you can play for that country.

There are some NZ who play for the Japanese National team, imo this is a good thing caus ethose players have a lot of talent but wouldn't make it to the All Blacks anyway. But when you start attracting foreign plyaer to your national team, allowing them to become a resident with a new nationality, that's wrong, that's like buying a team.

I understand taht rugby countries who are still at a low level or medium level are very eager to gain some better results but by getting overseas players.
To stimulate the developing of rugby in your country it's not wrong to have some overseas superplayers in the league but for the national team you should have at least some decent/ good players o the country itself, born and raised.
 
Controversial issue to say the least but what about the Grandparent rule?

Should it be you can play for the country your grandparent was born in or should stick it to parents?

One case in league was Nathan Fien claming he had a Kiwi Grandmother, played two tests but then got caught out when it was a kiwi Grandmother. Pretty much he was a true Aussie (Four Aussie Grandparents and two aussie parents, he was born and raised in Mt. Isa) then he can just make up that he has a kiwi grandmother and play for them?

Nah the rules are fine, NZ and Australia (mostly NZ) are lucky they can poach polynesians.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sir. Speedy @ Nov 7 2008, 04:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
I think that players should have at least 5 caps for a certain country before being forced to commit to that country.
For example, Regan King is one of the best running centres in GB, and the most consistent centre in Wales these past 2 years, yet he can't play for us because of a dodgy cap he had for NZ in '03 (?).[/b]

are you serious?? Regan King...

there was nothing dodgy about his selection... he earned his spot after a storming NPC. he was unbelievable... he quite rightly got selected for the end of year tour and was capped. the following season he had injuries and didnt have much of a super12.

if he actually backed up his form the following season he would have got more caps.

why would you want him... hes a born and bred kiwi... hes not welsh.

i know his family fairly well and there half Maori on the mothers side and English through his dad. as far as im aware he has no welsh in him at all....

it shocks me that you would consider him for a welsh jumper after the whole debacle with Shane Howarth & co....
 
I don't think once you've been capped by a nation you should have the option to overwrite them, if it was like that there would be lots of poaching and international rugby would become more like club rugby.

However I do think it would be beneficial to incorporate a system where ex-tier 1 nation players are able to play for 2nd tier nations after their career with the 1st tier is over, for example when Sivivatu's international career is over with NZ let him play with the Fiji side. When Lewsey is finally done with England let him move over to Wales!

I think the granparent rule should be scrapped and a cap at 'A' level or 7's shouldn't tie you down to that nation. I don't mind youth level, it's probably not fair having to make a large decision like that at a young age.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (amobokobokoboko @ Nov 7 2008, 07:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
I understand taht rugby countries who are still at a low level or medium level are very eager to gain some better results but by getting overseas players.
To stimulate the developing of rugby in your country it's not wrong to have some overseas superplayers in the league but for the national team you should have at least some decent/ good players o the country itself, born and raised.[/b]

Thats something which to be honest the Unions themselves should go on a journey of discovery on to find out what balance they want. Japan invites Pacific Islanders and ANZACs to the team mainly to provide bulk in the pack. At the same time however, the JRFU, John Kirwan, the top Universities and the the corps' who also run the teams (Toyota, Suntory, NEC, etc) are also ramping up the academy and conditioning programs and are explicitly outlining what size they expect their future Japanese players to be in the future.

Japan is a nation which tends to take the whole "bloodline" issue too far. They have a situation where even third or fourth generation Korean-Japanese are treated with suspicion and are shoved to the fringes of society. Many have to change their surname in order to get the same chances as everyone else. The most hilarious thing is that the 'ethnic' Japanese who move abroad, even for a period of four years to study at University are treated as outsiders on their return. Why? Because they've abandoned Japan! Why should they have the respect of their peers when they return? Japan tends to be more like the Jewish Settler bloc in the West Bank than the actual Jewish Settlers themselves.

Anyway, its their intention to slowly create a 'naturalised' Japanese team. Eventually.

Italy is another nation who gets allot of imported talent and this time, the likes of Kaine Robertson and Josh Sole are more or less naturalised Italians now and the Italians treat them as one of their own. However, the Italian RFU has made it clear now that they want to push their domestic teams to produce more domestic talent. Nick Mallet offered to talk to several up and coming South Africans recently with a view to moving them up here and getting them Italian passports but was denied.
 
the sevens rule is really important.... they need to keep that...

otherwise youl get the situation where the big nations will go after Fiji's or Samoa's top young sevens stars on the circut...
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shiznit @ Nov 7 2008, 10:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sir. Speedy @ Nov 7 2008, 04:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think that players should have at least 5 caps for a certain country before being forced to commit to that country.
For example, Regan King is one of the best running centres in GB, and the most consistent centre in Wales these past 2 years, yet he can't play for us because of a dodgy cap he had for NZ in '03 (?).[/b]

are you serious?? Regan King...

there was nothing dodgy about his selection... he earned his spot after a storming NPC. he was unbelievable... he quite rightly got selected for the end of year tour and was capped. the following season he had injuries and didnt have much of a super12.

if he actually backed up his form the following season he would have got more caps.

why would you want him... hes a born and bred kiwi... hes not welsh.

i know his family fairly well and there half Maori on the mothers side and English through his dad. as far as im aware he has no welsh in him at all....

it shocks me that you would consider him for a welsh jumper after the whole debacle with Shane Howarth & co....


[/b][/quote]

Well hes married a Welsh woman mate, surely if you knew the family you would know that! King was also capped for the All Blacks because he was thinking of moving at the time and they were afraid he was going to gain residency elsehere and that country would cap him!

When I spoke to him the other day King said he'd considered himself half Welsh!
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cymro @ Nov 7 2008, 11:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shiznit @ Nov 7 2008, 10:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sir. Speedy @ Nov 7 2008, 04:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think that players should have at least 5 caps for a certain country before being forced to commit to that country.
For example, Regan King is one of the best running centres in GB, and the most consistent centre in Wales these past 2 years, yet he can't play for us because of a dodgy cap he had for NZ in '03 (?).[/b]

are you serious?? Regan King...

there was nothing dodgy about his selection... he earned his spot after a storming NPC. he was unbelievable... he quite rightly got selected for the end of year tour and was capped. the following season he had injuries and didnt have much of a super12.

if he actually backed up his form the following season he would have got more caps.

why would you want him... hes a born and bred kiwi... hes not welsh.

i know his family fairly well and there half Maori on the mothers side and English through his dad. as far as im aware he has no welsh in him at all....

it shocks me that you would consider him for a welsh jumper after the whole debacle with Shane Howarth & co....


[/b][/quote]

Well hes married a Welsh woman mate, surely if you knew the family you would know that! King was also capped for the All Blacks because he was thinking of moving at the time and they were afraid he was going to gain residency elsehere and that country would cap him!

When I spoke to him the other day King said he'd considered himself half Welsh!
[/b][/quote]

he could always have said 'no, i don't want to play'.

Fact is, he chose to pull on the all black jersey. Getting your first international cap is a huge honour; there's a ceremony around it. It's not right that you can throw all that back to play for someone else.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shiznit @ Nov 7 2008, 10:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
why would you want him... hes a born and bred kiwi... hes not welsh. It shocks me that you would consider him for a welsh jumper after the whole debacle with Shane Howarth & co....[/b]
That does pose an interesting point.

Why would NZ want a Pacific Islander, Why would the French want one of the African lads, Why would Ireland want an South African, or Wales a New Zealander. At a quick glance its hard to answer, but the residency rule is key. If a player has lived and worked in a country for a certain amount of time (I'd go with 5 years myself), they become part of the community, the country, and should be allowed to represent that country.

However if they have declared for a country, and been capped at senior level, they should be stuck with that decision for life. No exceptions, no appeals. Nacewa declared for Figi, King for New Zealand. Their decision. End of story.

I like the rules of poofball on this issue. Grandparent rules applies, and only senior caps count. Residency period is 5 years (I think)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Nov 6 2008, 10:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Without getting into a debate about whether america sucks or not, i'd hope you're not proud of all your immigrant ancestors did to build america...[/b]
Oh and that was more than a little out of line dont you think?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Nov 7 2008, 01:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cymro @ Nov 7 2008, 11:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shiznit @ Nov 7 2008, 10:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sir. Speedy @ Nov 7 2008, 04:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think that players should have at least 5 caps for a certain country before being forced to commit to that country.
For example, Regan King is one of the best running centres in GB, and the most consistent centre in Wales these past 2 years, yet he can't play for us because of a dodgy cap he had for NZ in '03 (?).[/b]

are you serious?? Regan King...

there was nothing dodgy about his selection... he earned his spot after a storming NPC. he was unbelievable... he quite rightly got selected for the end of year tour and was capped. the following season he had injuries and didnt have much of a super12.

if he actually backed up his form the following season he would have got more caps.

why would you want him... hes a born and bred kiwi... hes not welsh.

i know his family fairly well and there half Maori on the mothers side and English through his dad. as far as im aware he has no welsh in him at all....

it shocks me that you would consider him for a welsh jumper after the whole debacle with Shane Howarth & co....


[/b][/quote]

Well hes married a Welsh woman mate, surely if you knew the family you would know that! King was also capped for the All Blacks because he was thinking of moving at the time and they were afraid he was going to gain residency elsehere and that country would cap him!

When I spoke to him the other day King said he'd considered himself half Welsh!
[/b][/quote]

he could always have said 'no, i don't want to play'.

Fact is, he chose to pull on the all black jersey. Getting your first international cap is a huge honour; there's a ceremony around it. It's not right that you can throw all that back to play for someone else.


[/b][/quote]

Name me players that said no?
 
Not to get pedantic (which I usually am), but what point has he to prove. He's right about Regan king. King declared for NZ so it should be end of story really. Nacewa for Leinster has the same problem.

Players by default dont say no, and maybe thats the problem. They accept an international call up based on their desire to represent that country. If it doesnt work out for them, well tough shite really. History is littered with players that didnt make it internationally, one-cap-wonders etc. I dont see why we should change the rules just so these players can earn better money representing another nation.
 
The current eligibilty rules are fine IMHO.

I believe that a player who is born in a country should play for that country, or at least have the choice. However, if they then move abroad and become a naturalised citizen then as long as they have not decided to play for their birth nation at a senior level, then they should be allowed to play for the adopted country where they reside and settled.

I would say that it should be taken to the higher age groups also, like U19. If you are capped at age-group, you must play for their senior team only, if selected.

The 7's rules need to be kept very tight as New Zealand will cap potential Manu Samoa, Fiji and Tonga senior players living in NZ with no intention of capping them for the All Blacks, just so they cannot play against them if they do make an island team. I think this is the only point to be argued.. but of course, they DO have a choice to play for NZ or not.

The politics between Samoa and New Zealand for example, is quite complex and transcends sport completely. Samoa is a very small, third world country and the history between NZ and Samoa goes back to the end of WW1, when New Zealand took over control of Western Samoa unopposed from the Germans (who had it previously) all the way up until 1962, when Samoa declared it's independence from NZ.

Apart from two major incidents, New Zealand has generally been positive for the development of Samoa and it's people to give them an opportunity to live in New Zealand, where they can make something much better of their lives than they ever could in Samoa, and that includes both the Rugby codes. In fact, Manu Samoa Ltd is bankrolled by a kiwi. The only argument for NZ not giving back to Samoa is with test matches.

So, naturally now there are many Samoans living in NZ who have no formal connection to Samoa other than being of samoan descent. All the guys on this forum are of that group i would guess. They are kiwis, but acknowledge the culture of which they descend from, but have no direct link.

So, it works both ways. If you was only allowed to play in the country of birth, then Samoa could have fielded:
Va'iaga Tuigamala, Jerry Collins, Alama Ieremia, Chris Masoe, Mils Muliaina, Isaia Toeava, Casey Laulala and Rodney So'oialo as they was ALL definitely born in Samoa.

Likewise, Fiji can field Sivivatu and Rokocoko.

But you'd have to remove the NZ-born (or other born players) who'd include: Lome Fa'atau, Pat Lam, Seilala Mapusua, Sailosi Tagicakibau (Fiji), Stephen Bachop, Earl Va'a, Frank Bunce, Gavin Williams, Peter Fatialofa and Apollo Perelini.. who were all born in NZ and we all know these players formed the winningest sides in Samoan rugby history.

In fact, if it wasn't for the current rules, then Samoa would be in a much poorer position in World Rugby. At the RWC 2007, Manu Samoa fielded 14 New Zealand-born players compared to just five Samoan-born players in the All Blacks squad. That tells it's own story. Those players have become stars because of New Zealand, not anything remarkable (training wise) that Samoa has done.

All these All Blacks are born in places like Apia, and Moto'otua, but they moved to NZ at an early age and grew up there, learned all their education and rugby there in the main, but have that key samoan ingredient. Samoa has no claim to them as such and technically THEY are poaching from NZ to fill ranks in Manu Samoa.

Ask any young aspiring samoan rugby player living in Samoa who they want to play for, and they will almost say the All Blacks, every single time. This is because every young samoan male rugby player dreams of being an All Black and following the footsteps of their icons.. Muliaina, Collins, Masoe and so forth. Also the money factor.

Although in the tiny villages, like Fagaloa where my in-laws live.. they will follow the most famous nearest local player, in Fagaloa's case it is Mikaele Pesamino from Vailele.

This is very good for the future of Samoan rugby as Pesamino is a Samoan 7's cap and hopefully will gain full caps in 15's for Manu Samoa, whilst playing in NZ with Auckland in NPC.. rather than choosing to play for NZ.

The top players that end up playing for Manu Samoa, such as David Lemi and Alesana Tuilagi are not playing because they want to play for Samoa firstly, it's because they can't play for the All Blacks. This is by far no detriment to Samoan rugby.. i have seen first hand exactly how they enjoy this game and how religious they are about it and it means everything to them. It's just the way in a poor country to go after the money.

What it means is that now more and more samoan players are earning great money in professional teams in Europe and Japan, they will choose Samoa for the right reason, which is because of birth and the fa'a samoa.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cymro @ Nov 8 2008, 12:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shiznit @ Nov 7 2008, 10:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sir. Speedy @ Nov 7 2008, 04:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think that players should have at least 5 caps for a certain country before being forced to commit to that country.
For example, Regan King is one of the best running centres in GB, and the most consistent centre in Wales these past 2 years, yet he can't play for us because of a dodgy cap he had for NZ in '03 (?).[/b]

are you serious?? Regan King...

there was nothing dodgy about his selection... he earned his spot after a storming NPC. he was unbelievable... he quite rightly got selected for the end of year tour and was capped. the following season he had injuries and didnt have much of a super12.

if he actually backed up his form the following season he would have got more caps.

why would you want him... hes a born and bred kiwi... hes not welsh.

i know his family fairly well and there half Maori on the mothers side and English through his dad. as far as im aware he has no welsh in him at all....

it shocks me that you would consider him for a welsh jumper after the whole debacle with Shane Howarth & co....


[/b][/quote]

Well hes married a Welsh woman mate, surely if you knew the family you would know that! King was also capped for the All Blacks because he was thinking of moving at the time and they were afraid he was going to gain residency elsehere and that country would cap him!

When I spoke to him the other day King said he'd considered himself half Welsh!
[/b][/quote]

i dont see your point... since when has marridge made you eligible for another country??

how do you know they capped him because he wanted to go overseas... he earned his spot in that side.

he debuted on that tour with Ali Williams, Kevin Melamu, Daniel Braid, Keith Robinson, Andrew Hore & Rodney So'oialo..

all of them kicked on to all black careers... sadly most because of injury Regan King didnt...

theres nothing more to the story....

if the bloke feels welsh then good on him... all i know is hes a born and bred kiwi... came through the NZ system.... if your happy with him playing for your country then good on you...

i know that i wouldnt be happy for the same thing... i certainly wasnt happy when Steve Devine made the all blacks...
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shiznit @ Nov 8 2008, 10:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cymro @ Nov 8 2008, 12:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shiznit @ Nov 7 2008, 10:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sir. Speedy @ Nov 7 2008, 04:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think that players should have at least 5 caps for a certain country before being forced to commit to that country.
For example, Regan King is one of the best running centres in GB, and the most consistent centre in Wales these past 2 years, yet he can't play for us because of a dodgy cap he had for NZ in '03 (?).[/b]

are you serious?? Regan King...

there was nothing dodgy about his selection... he earned his spot after a storming NPC. he was unbelievable... he quite rightly got selected for the end of year tour and was capped. the following season he had injuries and didnt have much of a super12.

if he actually backed up his form the following season he would have got more caps.

why would you want him... hes a born and bred kiwi... hes not welsh.

i know his family fairly well and there half Maori on the mothers side and English through his dad. as far as im aware he has no welsh in him at all....

it shocks me that you would consider him for a welsh jumper after the whole debacle with Shane Howarth & co....


[/b][/quote]

Well hes married a Welsh woman mate, surely if you knew the family you would know that! King was also capped for the All Blacks because he was thinking of moving at the time and they were afraid he was going to gain residency elsehere and that country would cap him!

When I spoke to him the other day King said he'd considered himself half Welsh!
[/b][/quote]

i dont see your point... since when has marridge made you eligible for another country??


[/b][/quote]

For a while, hes qualifed as he has lived here for 3 years and no married ....theres my point!
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (O'Rothlain @ Nov 7 2008, 03:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Nov 6 2008, 06:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Nov 6 2008, 10:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I just get irritated by the attitude that America was 'discovered' and was the promised land and all of that crap, as if the history of the place only started in the 17th century... anyway, rant over.[/b]

WRONG! The history of America started in the 16th century. duh! :rolleyes:
[/b][/quote]
High 5!
ha ha ha

It's not like we don't know about the Native Americans. It's not like that hasn't been dealt with over and over again here.
But, Civilization, as we understand it, only came with the Europeans. Now, if I was a Native or you were then we'd have a different perspective.
Plus, there's not really history before Europeans as they didn't pass on much in the form of accounts (written stories). We only have archeology before the Euro-invasion. If we are to get technical.
[/b][/quote]

1492 seems to me to be rather 15th century, doesn't it?
 
Keep it simple, once you have lived somewhere for 3 years without playing for your country or origin you become eligible to play for them.
 
i think it's acceptable to have players born in other countries playing for your national team. however, i do believe there should be a certain limit regarding the amount of international players playing for a country. i would reduce the number of international players to 5, so as to avoid having countries playing with 10 international players. for instance, when i look at the italian team, it is almost funny the fact that 9 players are argentinians, 2 are new zealanders, 1 is south african, and just 3 or 4 are italians. wtf? thats ridiculous.
dont get angry my italian fellows, i like your country :)
 

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