New Breakdown rules

[lucky number 7]

I was fully informed of the new rule changes on wednesday morning by one of our coaches on the schools team...needless to say i am not impressed

Firstly tackler must release the man fully and get to his feet before he may compete for the ball...this is not so bad until you actually try this in game..referee does not notice unless you give a clap of the hands or something which not only leaves you looking like a gobshite but takes hands way off course from where you want to be putting them...

Now the main problem for me is where another player makes the tackle I normally latch onto the ball on the ball carriers descent to the turf and come hell or high water ntohing will get me off that ball..but now the second the ball carrriers knee touches the floor both players tackling the man must immediately release him or be penalised ...
Then should the player who has taken no part in tackling the ball carrier come in and want to steal it he must wait for the tackler who is most likely still on the ground must not be in any contact with the ball carrier before he may lay a finger on the ball...

Now with all these factors now making me a walking sack of shite on field I am rather ****** off..but i suppose i will have to adapt...However i wonder how the refs will control the breakdown now...with so many possible infractions it is going to be very very hit and miss at the lower tiers of rugby which will cause no end of frustration to all involved....sure im a fan of running rugby and whatnot but these changes are very extreme and i doubt they will have the desired effect....I am probably very slow off the mark with posting this but I only realised the full effect of how shite I now am because of this yesterday...

 

[TRF_Cymro]

I was fully informed of the new rule changes on wednesday morning by one of our coaches on the schools team...needless to say i am not impressed

Firstly tackler must release the man fully and get to his feet before he may compete for the ball...this is not so bad until you actually try this in game..referee does not notice unless you give a clap of the hands or something which not only leaves you looking like a gobshite but takes hands way off course from where you want to be putting them...

Now the main problem for me is where another player makes the tackle I normally latch onto the ball on the ball carriers descent to the turf and come hell or high water ntohing will get me off that ball..but now the second the ball carrriers knee touches the floor both players tackling the man must immediately release him or be penalised ...
Then should the player who has taken no part in tackling the ball carrier come in and want to steal it he must wait for the tackler who is most likely still on the ground must not be in any contact with the ball carrier before he may lay a finger on the ball...

Now with all these factors now making me a walking sack of shite on field I am rather ****** off..but i suppose i will have to adapt...However i wonder how the refs will control the breakdown now...with so many possible infractions it is going to be very very hit and miss at the lower tiers of rugby which will cause no end of frustration to all involved....sure im a fan of running rugby and whatnot but these changes are very extreme and i doubt they will have the desired effect....I am probably very slow off the mark with posting this but I only realised the full effect of how shite I now am because of this yesterday...

Hahaha we were playing with that rule last year ... but I feel your pain!

 

[lucky number 7]

we werent were we????

 

[TRF_Cymro]

we werent were we????

I meant the WRU incorporated this rule in, was a bugger to play in.

 

[lucky number 7]

It is fairly difficult to play with..first time to play yesterday...leaked 2 penalties only nicked 3 or 4 ...not good...too difficult to ref i reckon...

 

[smartcooky]

This is going to be a long post and I am sorry about that, but it needs to be because it is a complex issue that needs a thorough explanation.

I was fully informed of the new rule changes on wednesday morning by one of our coaches on the schools team...needless to say i am not impressed

Firstly tackler must release the man fully and get to his feet before he may compete for the ball...this is not so bad until you actually try this in game..referee does not notice unless you give a clap of the hands or something which not only leaves you looking like a gobshite but takes hands way off course from where you want to be putting them...

Whoever told you that is wrong; its not new. These laws have been in place since 1996 and 2005 respectively.

Firstly, only the players who go to ground with the tackled player are "tacklers".

LAW 15 Definitions
Opposition players who hold the ball carrier and bring that player to ground, and who also go to ground, are known as tacklers.

They are covered by the section of Law 15 that pertains to tacklers

15.4 THE TACKLER
(a) When a player tackles an opponent and they both go to ground, the tackler must immediately release the tackled player.
Sanction: Penalty kick
(b) The tackler must immediately get up or move away from the tackled player and from the ball at once.
Sanction: Penalty kick
(c) The tackler must get up before playing the ball and then may play the ball from any direction.**
Sanction: Penalty kick

Since the "tackled ball" Law changes in 1996, they have had to release the player and or ball before getting to their feet.**They do not have to go through the gate before playing the ball (the only players that do not have to meet the "gate" requirement)

Secondly, players who remain standing when the ball barrier goes to ground are NOT tacklers.

This has been the Law since 2005.

LAW 15 DEFINITIONS
Opposition players who hold the ball carrier and do not go to ground are not tacklers.

They are sometimes referred to as the "tackle assistant" and are covered by the section of Law 15 that pertains to "Other players"

15.6 OTHER PLAYERS
(a) After a tackle, all other players must be on their feet when they play the ball. Players are on their feet if no other part of their body is supported by the ground or players on the ground.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(b) After a tackle any players on their feet may attempt to gain possession by taking the ball from the ball carrier’s possession.

(c) Players in opposition to the ball carrier who remain on their feet who bring the ball carrier to ground so that the player is tackled must release the ball and the ball carrier. Those players may then play the ball providing they are on their feet and do so from behind the ball and from directly behind the tackled player or a tackler closest to those players’ goal line.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(d) At a tackle or near to a tackle, other players who play the ball must do so from behind the ball and from directly behind the tackled player or the tackler closest to those players’ goal line.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(e) Any player who gains possession of the ball at the tackle must play the ball immediately by moving away or passing or kicking the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(f) Any player who first gains possession of the ball must not go to the ground at the tackle or near to it unless tackled by an opposition player.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(g) Any player who first gains possession of the ball at the tackle or near to it may be tackled by an opposition player providing that player does so from behind the ball and from directly behind the tackled player or the tackler closest to that player’s goal line.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(h) After a tackle, any player lying on the ground must not prevent an opponent from getting possession of the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(i) After a tackle, any player on the ground must not tackle an opponent or try to tackle an opponent.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(j) When a tackled player reaches out to ground the ball on or over the goal line to score a try, an opponent may pull the ball from the player’s possession, but must not kick or attempt to kick the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick

Now the main problem for me is where another player makes the tackle I normally latch onto the ball on the ball carriers descent to the turf and come hell or high water nothing will get me off that ball

Then you are "not releasing" and will be penalised.

but now the second the ball carrier's knee touches the floor both players tackling the man must immediately release him or be penalised ...

Correct. The important thing to keep in mind here is your position if you are a tackle assistant. If you are already standing "in the gate" (i.e. on your side of the ball directly between the tackled player and your own goal-line) then you only have to release the ball/ball carrier and do not have to move away. This is where the hand-clap comes in. You are indicating to the referee that you have released the ball/ball carrier and therefore are legal to go after the ball.

Then should the player who has taken no part in tackling the ball carrier come in and want to steal it he must wait for the tackler who is most likely still on the ground must not be in any contact with the ball carrier before he may lay a finger on the ball...

If the third man in is going for the ball and the tackler still hasn't released the ball, then the tackler hasn't released quick enough. Immediate means immediate. How long would you keep your hand on a red-hot stove element? That is how long the tackler and tackle assistant hold onto the ball/ball carrier

Now with all these factors now making me a walking sack of shite on field I am rather ****** off..but i suppose i will have to adapt...However i wonder how the refs will control the breakdown now...with so many possible infractions it is going to be very very hit and miss at the lower tiers of rugby which will cause no end of frustration to all involved....sure im a fan of running rugby and whatnot but these changes are very extreme and i doubt they will have the desired effect....I am probably very slow off the mark with posting this but I only realised the full effect of how shite I now am because of this yesterday...

So to summarise

1. The tackler: must release ball and carrier immediately and then he can get to his feet and play the ball from ANY direction, i.e. without going through the gate.

2. The Tackle Assistant: must release ball and carrier immediately and remain on his feet then move around to the gate before playing the ball.

3. Other players: Must arrive through the gate and remain on their feet, then they can play the ball.

This is the mantra by which referees are expected to manage the tackle areas. It is clear and is coached to referees as a sequential decision making process :

1st. Tackler and tackle assistant release ball/ball carrier and away (Law 15.4 and 15.6)

2nd. Tackled player release ball, place, pass, push etc immediately (Law 15.5)

3rd. Tackle assistant and other arriving players on feet, shoulders above hips and through 'the gate'. (Law 15.6)

4th. Transition to ruck and call of 'ruck' at correct time. (Law 16)

So for example, if nether the tackler nor tackled player are releasing, the tackler not releasing is seen as the first offence and is penalised.


Thirdly: Why all this came about.
The IRB Rugby Committee (who are responsible as much as anything else for the "shape" of the game) were very concerned about the way rugby union had become a boring kick-fest. You may recall that the 2007 RWC Final, supposedly the show-piece of our game, was turned into a farcical exhibition of aimless kicking and little more than 15 a side aerial ping-pong with no tries and ninety six kicks in play (about one every 50 seconds). More recently, we were very critical of South Africa for employing the kick and chase game, resulting in aerial ping pong. Attacking teams became afraid to take the ball into contact in their own half resulting in a 2009 Tri Nations in which try-scoring from constructive play was almost non-existent.

They decided (correctly IMO) that the policing of the breakdown had erred too much in favour of the side not in possession, which had the effect of punishing the side playing positive running rugby, and rewarding the side playing negatively. The measures they have taken here redress the imbalance, and have swung it in favour of the side that wants to run with the ball in hand.

 

[lucky number 7]

What if I hit with shoulder into the ball then he gets rocked backwards but I still having my balance and on my feet still have hold of the ball and then he falls back onto his back and as I did not go to ground i am not a tackler...but I am the only man who made contact and now have a hold of the ball what must i do

 

[smartcooky]

You are still on your feet so you must release (you can either clap your hands or quickly raise them up so the referee can see you have released), then if you are in the gate position, go after the ball, or if you are not in the gate position you must move around to the gate position first, and then go after the ball.

All this creates a small delay to allow the ball carrier to place, push, pass or release the ball. - Laws 15.5 (a - d)

If you release it him, then then go after the ball and he won't give it to you, he will be penalised.- Law 15.5 (e)

Remember, you have to get this done before another opponent arrives and makes physical contact with you,

If you get your hands back on the ball before the opponent arrives and makes physical contact, ruck is formed but you can keep your hands on the ball - Law 16.4 (b)

If the opponent arrives and makes physical contact before you can get your hands on the ball, a ruck is formed and you now cannot go for the ball - Law 16.4 (b)

Remember this is a split second decision for you, because if you haven't gone for the ball, the arriving player can, and if he gets his hands on it first, HE will be allowed to keep his hands on it even if YOU form the ruck. If you can see that your opponent is likely to get his hands on the ball first, it might be better for you not to try going for the ball, and instead grab him so that you can get the ruck formed and prevent him getting his hands on.

This is one way of slowing the ball down legally if your opponents have better backs than you and are killing you with quickly recycled ball and/or you are bit slower to the breakdown than they are. Don't go for the ball yourself, just prevent them from quickly recycling their own ball. This is exactly what a team like the Springboks will be planning to do when they haven't picked a pilfering openside flanker like Brussouw.

 

[Radman]

Sorry, but why so complicated, why don't they simplify it.

Law 1; When player is tackled and a breakdown occurs, whichever team comes up with possesion within a 5-10 second period plays on. If the ball is trapped in the breakdown for a period of time deemed too long by the ref a scrum will form in favour of the team who had possesion when the breakdown occured.

Sick of all this crap about positioning, on feet, raking, hind legs and all this other rubbish, just let it go, the ball will come out one way or the other and the men will be sorted from the boys.

 

[smartcooky]

Sorry, but why so complicated, why don't they simplify it.

Law 1; When player is tackled and a breakdown occurs, whichever team comes up with possesion within a 5-10 second period plays on. If the ball is trapped in the breakdown for a period of time deemed too long by the ref a scrum will form in favour of the team who had possesion when the breakdown occured.

Sick of all this crap about positioning, on feet, raking, hind legs and all this other rubbish, just let it go, the ball will come out one way or the other and the men will be sorted from the boys.

Rugby is about the contest for the ball at the breakdown, we contest at the tackle, ruck, maul, scrum and line-out. Its what separates us from RL, where there is no contest; you get 6 turns with the ball then you have to give it away.

What you suggest would...

1. Absolutely kill fair competition for the ball.
2. Lead to an endless series of scrums.

What you are saying is essentially a return to the Laws of the 1950's and 60's, when there were 60+ scrums and about the same number of line-outs in a game, and scorelines were like 6-3 and 9-6 with tries a rarity.

No thanks

 

[squirrel]

yeah agree cook i think the laws are good,i reckon the way it was refereed back at the start of the decade was goodto watch

 

[Radman]

Rugby is about the contest for the ball at the breakdown, we contest at the tackle, ruck, maul, scrum and line-out. Its what separates us from RL, where there is no contest; you get 6 turns with the ball then you have to give it away.

What you suggest would...

1. Absolutely kill fair competition for the ball.
2. Lead to an endless series of scrums.

What you are saying is essentially a return to the Laws of the 1950's and 60's, when there were 60+ scrums and about the same number of line-outs in a game, and scorelines were like 6-3 and 9-6 with tries a rarity.

No thanks

Fair enough, so you are saying they have about the right balance with the way things are now.

 

[smartcooky]

Fair enough, so you are saying they have about the right balance with the way things are now.

Yes, and here is one reason why I think that is. Here are some stats for Breakdowns to turnovers in the Tri-Nations, comparing last year with this year. If you don't want to bother reading the stats, thats fine, but just look at the conclusions afterwards.

Put simply;

In 2009, if you got tackled and brought to ground, there was a 26% (1 iin 4) chance you would lose possession. If your team managed to keep possession at the first phase, by the 4th phase, you were statistically 100% certain to have either turned over the ball, or given up possession through a scrum or penalty. As a result, was nigh on impossible to keep up any continuity, so teams did not want to take the ball into contact. The result was the kick-fest, a.k.a. aerial ping-pong. They kicked, and kicked and kicked the ball away. The try-scoring dried up, and most of the scoring came from penalties, many of them awarded at the breakdown.

Then the SANZAR referees took the initiative and changed the breakdown interpretations. The IRB saw the effect it had at Super 14 level, and followed suit.

In 2010, you only had a 14% (1 in 7) chance of giving up a turnover at the tackle/ruck/maul; almost twice the chance of maintaining continuous possession. Result: more recycled ball, more running, less kicking more tries.

The "experts" the IRB Rugby Committee reckon that anything less than 1 in 9 makes it too much in favour of the team with the ball, so that the side not in possession loses interest in going for the turnover, and simply fills the trenches on defence.

I think that 1 in 7 turnovers at the breakdown is about right. They now need to leave the breakdown Laws alone.

 

[Radman]

Thanks for that, that was very informative.

 

[Dai26]

The new laws are great, actually the same laws just the IRB telling refs to just apply them as they are written. They clearly worked in the Tri-Nations and lead to some of the prettiest rugby ive seen in a while.

Unfortunately, northern hemisphere refs, especially those in the magners seem content to make up their own interpretations of the rules. In the Scarlets game last night was a case in point, a player was the tackler and had just performed a textbook example of releasing the player getting to his feet and jackling the ball. The ref blew for a penalty and i assumed that it was because the tackled player was holding on. He then preceded to tell the tackler he must get to his feet and then enter through the gate before he may play the ball. It was not a matter of interpretations he simply did not know the ruling.

This inconsistency and poor quality of refereeing is going to lead to some huge score lines against the celtic teams in the autumn internationals.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

It's amazing how attitudes have changed among supporters of the 6 Nations teams. Last season plenty of people didn't want change because "it'll turn the game into rugby league" and seemed to revel in games where the scorelines were always divisible by 3, there were constant kicking duels and zero creativity. Now those same people are banging on about how the reinterpreted laws are brilliant for the game because more tries are scored.

In my opinion this new breakdown interpretation should have been implemented straight after the turgid 2007 World Cup. It's not ideal (teams can just recycle possession at will) but it's certainly better than what's gone immediately before.

 

[lucky number 7]

I still hate it ... referees unable to control breakdown properly at club level its ridiculously frustrating how inconsitent the calls are and now i find people just flying in off their feet to secure the ball while the ref is too busy thinking about wether the tackler(s) have released the man...

yes its more free flowing and there are more tries scored but unless it is reffed effectively it is a shocking system to play under.

 

[smartcooky]

I still hate it ... referees unable to control breakdown properly at club level its ridiculously frustrating how inconsitent the calls are and now i find people just flying in off their feet to secure the ball while the ref is too busy thinking about wether the tackler(s) have released the man...

yes its more free flowing and there are more tries scored but unless it is reffed effectively it is a shocking system to play under.

You shouldn't blame the Laws for that, you should blame the referees themselves.

The ITM Cup and Heartland Championship referees seem mostly to understand and apply them well.

 

[Dai26]

It's amazing how attitudes have changed among supporters of the 6 Nations teams. Last season plenty of people didn't want change because "it'll turn the game into rugby league" and seemed to revel in games where the scorelines were always divisible by 3, there were constant kicking duels and zero creativity. Now those same people are banging on about how the reinterpreted laws are brilliant for the game because more tries are scored.

In my opinion this new breakdown interpretation should have been implemented straight after the turgid 2007 World Cup. It's not ideal (teams can just recycle possession at will) but it's certainly better than what's gone immediately before.

I wish someone would explain to the Ospreys how to recycle ball at will as they cant do it for love nor money! Also I disagree with your statement that people revelled in the 6 nations this year. I don't think I've ever heard the commentators and the media bemoan a single tournament so much. The new intereptations would have cured many of the woes if they were in action i.e. Wales complete inability to go through the phases and every teams enthusiasm to put boot to ball.

 

[smartcooky]

Also I disagree with your statement that people revelled in the 6 nations this year. I don't think I've ever heard the commentators and the media bemoan a single tournament so much. The new intereptations would have cured many of the woes if they were in action i.e. Wales complete inability to go through the phases and every teams enthusiasm to put boot to ball.

I agree. Without exception, all of the English rugby pundits & writers who are interviewd by radio sport in New Zealand (Mike Bovill from Talksport, Miles Harrison from Skysport among others) roundly criticised the Northern Hemisphere game last season. Incessant kicking back and forth was their biggest hate! Ours too!!