New England starting 15?

[gingergenius]

Out of curiousity GG, who would you pick at 12 is absolutely everyone was fit - Farrell or Barritt?

Farrell, assuming Tuilagi was 13.

 

[Peat]

He kicked a 78th minute penalty from 45m out to draw the game against Saracens on new years day... which is about as big as a game will come for Glos this year, unfortunately.

:lol:

Sorry, I shouldn't mock.

I wouldn't call Burns uncomposed, but Farrell's composure is ridiculous.

 

[Aedaphon]

Not that I'm entirely opposed to Farrell, just that I'm not sure why he's "undisputably" more reliable. For now, I'd go:
10. Burns 12. Barritt 13. Farrell
If Burns doesn't do well, Farrell to 10 and a center comes in off the bench.

Would not be happy with Farrell playing 13 defensively at an international level, if they do decide not to start him at 10 or 12 it would be a lot safer to start him off the bench or wait for the Italy game.

Over the next couple of years I could see a midfield of:
10. Flood (covered by the 12 options)
12. Farell/Twelvetrees
13. Tuilagi (maybe Trinder...?)

Tuilagi puts the fear of god into an attacking line and carries better than anyone else in the England squad. I am a fan of Baritt but only if Tuilagi is unavailable... Given that we have such strength coming through in the outside backs (Wade, Sharples, Brown, even Garvey?) as well as Foden & Ashton with fairly secure places I think it's pretty key to keep our 12 as a distributor for the next couple of years with Tuilagi as the crash.

 

[Peat]

Personally I believe that having a 13 who selects good options and looks to put his outside backs into space is more important for them than a distributing 12, and would try to persuade Tuilagi to move in one to 12, and pick someone like Allen, Lowe, Daly or Trinder there (you'd need to persuade Cockerill as well clearly). Certainly Wales and NZ's outside backs haven't suffered for having a big man at 12 (and Ashton would thrive immeasurably off of a big offloader at 12).

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Tuilagi played a couple of games at 12 for Leicester recently, but wasn't half as effective there as 13 - could've just been the way the Tigers were using him though (though I'm inclined to think it's not that, considering they're well aware of his strengths/weaknesses)

 

[Peat]

Tuilagi played a couple of games at 12 for Leicester recently, but wasn't half as effective there as 13 - could've just been the way the Tigers were using him though (though I'm inclined to think it's not that, considering they're well aware of his strengths/weaknesses)

Leicester haven't been as effective in general recently so there could be a host of reasons - but I think it's largely because he'd have been in more traffic and his game hasn't developed enough/has developed in other ways. It wouldn't work perfectly tomorrow if you did it. His distribution game needs to come on - that will both be more exposed at 12, and possibly better developed there. He could, if trained, be a very effective 12. Mindyou, he could, is trained, turn out to be the 13 I want as well. If they develop fully, Twelvetrees-Tuilagi would be a hell of a combination.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I remember them for the Saxons last year - started out a bit shaky (both debuting) but then....ah, it was glorious.

 

[Peat]

I remember them for the Saxons last year - started out a bit shaky (both debuting) but then....ah, it was glorious.

Yes, they did put Italy A to shame. The footage from Ireland A, not so good (for a number of people actually).

 

[B10]

Greenwood backing Jonathon Joseph to make the squad and maybe start the Scotland game at 13. I think he has a big future but think starting v Scotland is too early. When did Joseph last play? I thought he was injured.

 

[McTallshort]

1. He's not normally a defensive liability. He was wrong-footed (presumably because he thought Goode was going to make the pass and moved on to mark the next guy) to make the tackle, and bounced off. It didn't have much to do with pace. If anything, bulkier players are more likely to profit from running the ball into a wrong-footed player.
2. If we dropped players for clangers, how many players would we have left to choose from? The best players can make them. James Hook had a pass intercepted for a try back in 2010 for example, but you'd hardly hold that against him.

Also, reading into the stats can be a little misleading at times. For example, you might read into the Saracens not making too many turnovers as a defensive frailty, but perhaps the reason is that they don't need to make turnovers because they choke their opponents of possession. Similarly, on player stats, a player like Brown might have made so many carries because he's the target man for the other Harlequins players to get the ball to, whereas Northampton allow any player to run the ball back. Either way, Foden-Brown is a no-brainer now. Brown is excellent back-up, but Foden is the first player down on the England teamsheet.

I know I just thought it was funny that the much ridiculed Andy Goode got one over on a young up and coming star, bet burns took some stick for that on the bus home.....

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Greenwood backing Jonathon Joseph to make the squad and maybe start the Scotland game at 13. I think he has a big future but think starting v Scotland is too early. When did Joseph last play? I thought he was injured.

He is - he was on the radio commentary for the Sale game, he's pretty close to coming back.

Don't think he's ready for the EPS, let alone to be starting the first game of the 6N, he's not even getting regular game time at Irish, let alone at 13.

He is, however, very very talented. Think he played wing/fullback for the U20s, so that with his being an outside centre would make him handy off of the bench - he could well take Armitage's place.

 

[gingergenius]

Joseph's not the silliest idea I've ever heard for a 13.

And, while many people wouldn't have him even in the 32, I'm going to throw Armitage's name into the mix as a temporary centre (if people think Trinder and Allen crocked is a risk too far). His discipline is a problem but I think sometimes that overshadows how good he is. I'd go as far to say that he's about as good an option for No. 22 as there is in the world, considering his ability, experience and versatility and the fact he won't get in the 1st choice lineup assuming everyone's fit. The only other player I can think of in the world like that is Toeava, and he's monstrously overrated.

I've been saying Trinder, but in reality I've seen only a few Gloucester games this season and have been impressed but not astonished. Allen I've also been saying, but there's every chance he won't be fit or in the right kind of form. Delon is playing well... there's another option for Lancaster!

Either way, whoever Lancaster picks at 13 will have my backing, provided they're not big and slow. It's a headache nearly as bad as that of replacement hookers.

 

[Peat]

The problem with Joseph is he's only just returning - incredibly aggrevating that Tuilagi, Lowe, Joseph and Allen have all had injury doubts at more or less the same time.

Hadn't considered Armitage. I don't particularly like him as a 13, but I've heard worse options.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't particularly like him as a 13, but I've heard worse options.

My feelings too
15 > Wing > 13
However he'd be the most experienced back on the pitch (there's a very good chance that 10, 11, 12 will have 0 caps between them), and despite his discipline problems, he'd at least be used to the pressure of international rugby and isn't going to fall to bits in the pressure.
He's not a terrible option, and I'd take him there in a heartbeat if it stopped Bananaman playing.

 

[Peat]

My feelings too
15 > Wing > 13
However he'd be the most experienced back on the pitch (there's a very good chance that 10, 11, 12 will have 0 caps between them), and despite his discipline problems, he'd at least be used to the pressure of international rugby and isn't going to fall to bits in the pressure.
He's not a terrible option, and I'd take him there in a heartbeat if it stopped Bananaman playing.

Actually our wing is likely to have at least 1 cap considering that Monye, Strettle, Sharples, JSD and Ojo all have at least 1 cap.

Not that this materially effects your argument but my pedantry obliged me to point this out.

I want Armitage left out because he's developing a problem and I want it made clear to him that's it unacceptable, and would probably not pick him even there, but it is not the worst option at all.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Sharples is uncapped, isn't he?

 

[Peat]

Capped against Wales this August.

 

[j'nuh]

15 > Wing > 13

That's the issue: 15 is Delon's best position, but do we really need cover for 15? I'm happy enough about Foden to say we should let him play the full 80 of games, and use the player in our 22 shirt to cover positions we're less certain about.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Capped against Wales this August.

Forgot about that!
Then again, with Banahan at 13 he may as well not been on the pitch the amount of ball that went his way

 

[gingergenius]

the thing is, if armitage is left out, then he'll sign with toulon. i know that's his decision, but money talks and england is the only realistic counter to it. And while Jonny etc. are welcome to big money in France, I reckon England still have a lot to benefit from Armitage's talents.