North Korea

[O'Rothlain]

Whether you agree or disagree with America, you cannot take away the fact that we are a force to be reckoned with. That's what is so scary about my country. Whatever we decide, we get...right or wrong. The only thing that could actually stop us from doing something we wanted would be a WWIII.

When it comes to WWII and what happened in both the Pacific and Europe, America gave the final and decisive push for Victory. They were needed, and had they not entered things would have dragged out for a lot longer time which would have devastated Europe. I do, however get annoyed when Americans say, "If it wasn't for us ya'll be speakin German." The statement implies that europe (in particular France) owes America. Let us not forget that had it not been for French aid (by the form of weapons, navy and troups) that America would not have won it's war for independence against the British. So, if it weren't for them, we'd all be running around saying "Jolly Right, Guvna!"

 

[tituslechmakus]

... stop being so interested in history mate or i'll have to give you rep each time you make a comment !!!

seriously, it seems that americans have forgotten the links between our 2 nations because of the irak war and france + germany + russia's coalition for peace. all of the americans thought : if they are not our allies then they are our ennemies ... a 4 years old child reflexion ...
i think there is a before and after this crisis in our relationship... it is very bad now 'cause of what bush did. his will of getting the irakian oil "by any means necessary" has turned america into "the bads of the story" !!! and now the muslim world, helped by the islamists has turned into an anti american and more widely anti western feeling. we could all thank our favourit george !!! (damn mo****f*****) !!! america the land of freedom, the home of the braves ... but it has been 60 years now since the braves are gone ...
the problem with the ussr destruction, as you said, gives america no more ennemy to fight. they want to be the "goods" but they are no "bads" to fight any more, so they had to invent one 'cause they couldn't fight the existing one (al qaida). this way of doing is turning them into the ones they wanted to fight and tv control of the population makes them think they are still the "goods". but laws like they are doing now, are anti democratik laws (like having the right to spy at will)... these are methods used by the sovietic KGB .... keep going on bush and you'll be the cause of WW3 USA against muslim world ... but this time it'll be on yor ground.
that's why the USA are world n°1 now, 'cause it has been 150 years since they did not have any war on their ground, where we had 3 in europe during that period + all the money we got from them for making war and we had to give it back (but that's a normal thing).

 

[O'Rothlain]

Western v. Eastern isn't a new thing. To put things in perspective this battle has been going on since the Crusades. It's easy for people in western society to disclaim Christianity and therefore remove themselves from the actions of the Crusaders, but it's not that simple. We are the decendants and the modern Islamic world are decendants also. Their culture has changed very little, while ours has evolved greatly. Regardless, whatever the current situation is, it's nothing new. The one thing that baffles me is why would people who seemingly loath western society move into the heart of it? Why are muslims who hate Western Society moving to London, and New York, Paris and L.A? Honestly, I don't fancy the Islamic lifestyle and/or culture, and for that reason alone, you don't see me rushing to move to Baghdad.

 

[tituslechmakus]

Western v. Eastern isn't a new thing. To put things in perspective this battle has been going on since the Crusades. It's easy for people in western society to disclaim Christianity and therefore remove themselves from the actions of the Crusaders, but it's not that simple. We are the decendants and the modern Islamic world are decendants also. Their culture has changed very little, while ours has evolved greatly. Regardless, whatever the current situation is, it's nothing new. The one thing that baffles me is why would people who seemingly loath western society move into the heart of it? Why are muslims who hate Western Society moving to London, and New York, Paris and L.A? Honestly, I don't fancy the Islamic lifestyle and/or culture, and for that reason alone, you don't see me rushing to move to Baghdad.
[/b]

and do you know why it hasen't changed yet ? 'cause the muslim religion is 600 years late on the christian one ... look at 600 years ago in europe, its back to 1400 ... and what was the christian religion at that time : inquisition ... exactly what muslims are doing right now. the methodes are quite different due to the time but the goals are the same BURN HERETIC BURN !!! that sums everything

 

[O'Rothlain]

Hmmmm...I've never looked at it that way, but you are definitely right about the time-scale. It would be an interesting look to see, from a historical perspective, how religion evolves in piety. Christianity and Islam are probably the only two examples of world dominating relgions. By this I mean a religious faith that deeply penetrates the governmental system and places itself at the head of both faith and politics. I'm sure that things of this nature have happend (as with the Incan Idians of S. America) but they have not been as long lasting.

On another note, we're not so far removed from the dark ages, are we? It's increadible to see what has changed in the last 600 years...we've been busy people.

Should we move this conversation to it's own thread...seeing as we have derived from the sole topic of North Korea?

 

[Ripper]

<div class='quotemain'>
Western v. Eastern isn't a new thing. To put things in perspective this battle has been going on since the Crusades. It's easy for people in western society to disclaim Christianity and therefore remove themselves from the actions of the Crusaders, but it's not that simple. We are the decendants and the modern Islamic world are decendants also. Their culture has changed very little, while ours has evolved greatly. Regardless, whatever the current situation is, it's nothing new. The one thing that baffles me is why would people who seemingly loath western society move into the heart of it? Why are muslims who hate Western Society moving to London, and New York, Paris and L.A? Honestly, I don't fancy the Islamic lifestyle and/or culture, and for that reason alone, you don't see me rushing to move to Baghdad.
[/b]

and do you know why it hasen't changed yet ? 'cause the muslim religion is 600 years late on the christian one ... look at 600 years ago in europe, its back to 1400 ... and what was the christian religion at that time : inquisition ... exactly what muslims are doing right now. the methodes are quite different due to the time but the goals are the same BURN HERETIC BURN !!! that sums everything
[/b][/quote]

So it's all justified because the French burnt some witches at the stake 600 years ago?

What happened to the peaceful religion that is Islam? If I form my own religion today, can I crucify you because the Jews/Romans crucified Jesus 2000 years ago? Preety please?

Originally posted by Frog Man+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Frog Man)</div>

now the muslim world, helped by the islamists has turned into an anti american and more widely anti western feeling. we could all thank our favourit george !!! (damn mo****f*****) !!! america the land of freedom, the home of the braves ... but it has been 60 years now since the braves are gone ... [/b]

Yeah, It's all Georges fault they crashed those planes into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon! Its all George Bush's fault that Muslims refuse to assimilate into their adopted countries and expect everybody to convert to thier ways. It's all George Bush's fault the French went soft on Saddam and allowed to him sell oil so he can rebuild his army and let his people starve.

<!--QuoteBegin-Frog Man
all the money we got from them for making war and we had to give it back (but that's a normal thing).

Yeah, well, thats what generally happens in a Loan.

 

[O'Rothlain]

So it's all justified because the French burnt some witches at the stake 600 years ago?

What happened to the peaceful religion that is Islam? If I form my own religion today, can I crucify you because the Jews/Romans crucified Jesus 2000 years ago? Preety please?
[/b]

I don't believe that is what he's saying, though. Regardless, there is a difference between Faith and Religion. Both Christianity and Islam are "peaceful" faiths, but as far as Religion goes they both have nasty track records. Any institution is prone to greed, power and ego problems, whereas faith in itself is a personal thing that you may share (have in common) with a group of people.

 

[Canadian_Rugby_Guy]

blame canada

[/b]

Alright! I admit it! That North Korean guy with the weird hair is our puppet! Steven Harper has his fingers up the man's ass and practices ventroloquism! There was no bomb, we just made a really fat man jump up and down a few times really, really fast. And we've been feeding him with all the food from the UN!

 

[Mr. Laxative]

If George Bush and his "politicialician" buddies want to do something really diplomatic then they need to follow through with this trade boycott. To go into North Korea would be disastrous. A. They'd get more weapons through trade; B. they's get food. Soon enough they'll starve and will give in, giving us (no not just the US) all the power in the world.


Just think Georgey, Johnny - this act of "diplomaticalness" could be seen as a retirement gift for Mr. Tony. Wouldn't he love to be popular when leaving office??








Then again, isn't this how Japan started in WW2?? A Trade Boycott????

 

[Ripper]

If George Bush and his "politicialician" buddies want to do something really diplomatic then they need to follow through with this trade boycott. To go into North Korea would be disastrous. A. They'd get more weapons through trade; B. they's get food. Soon enough they'll starve and will give in, giving us (no not just the US) all the power in the world.[/b]

Yeah, and we all know how Kim cares about his people and their stomachs, he cared so much he allowed 2 million of them to starve to death.

 

[sanzar]

<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
Western v. Eastern isn't a new thing. To put things in perspective this battle has been going on since the Crusades. It's easy for people in western society to disclaim Christianity and therefore remove themselves from the actions of the Crusaders, but it's not that simple. We are the decendants and the modern Islamic world are decendants also. Their culture has changed very little, while ours has evolved greatly. Regardless, whatever the current situation is, it's nothing new. The one thing that baffles me is why would people who seemingly loath western society move into the heart of it? Why are muslims who hate Western Society moving to London, and New York, Paris and L.A? Honestly, I don't fancy the Islamic lifestyle and/or culture, and for that reason alone, you don't see me rushing to move to Baghdad.
[/b]

and do you know why it hasen't changed yet ? 'cause the muslim religion is 600 years late on the christian one ... look at 600 years ago in europe, its back to 1400 ... and what was the christian religion at that time : inquisition ... exactly what muslims are doing right now. the methodes are quite different due to the time but the goals are the same BURN HERETIC BURN !!! that sums everything
[/b][/quote]

So it's all justified because the French burnt some witches at the stake 600 years ago?

What happened to the peaceful religion that is Islam? If I form my own religion today, can I crucify you because the Jews/Romans crucified Jesus 2000 years ago? Preety please?

Originally posted by Frog Man+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Frog Man)</div>

now the muslim world, helped by the islamists has turned into an anti american and more widely anti western feeling. we could all thank our favourit george !!! (damn mo****f*****) !!! america the land of freedom, the home of the braves ... but it has been 60 years now since the braves are gone ... [/b]

Yeah, It's all Georges fault they crashed those planes into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon! Its all George Bush's fault that Muslims refuse to assimilate into their adopted countries and expect everybody to convert to thier ways. It's all George Bush's fault the French went soft on Saddam and allowed to him sell oil so he can rebuild his army and let his people starve.

<!--QuoteBegin-Frog Man
all the money we got from them for making war and we had to give it back (but that's a normal thing).

Yeah, well, thats what generally happens in a Loan.
[/b][/quote]

:lol2tn: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol2tn:

This is what happens when you get all your information from FOX news people.

 

[sanzar]

<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
So what, you saying that the Australians and New Zealands could've defeated the Japanese in the Pacific by themselves if thier troops had stayed at home?
[/b]

No. Quite clearly I did not say that. At the time the Japanese would have struggled to have launched a successful campaign against New Zealand and Australia. Geographically Australia is a very difficult land to invade. You have to have a huge supply line and that makes yourself vulnerable to attack. Also New Zealand is prime guerilla war real estate and even though a large force could take it the losses would be very, very high.

If the USA had not entered the war when they did the political and geographical shape of the world would be very different today. However to say that Kiwis and Aussies owe their freedom to the USA is taking it too far. I owe my freedom today to people like my grandfather and his brothers for travelling to the other side of the world and risking their own lives to fight a war that they believed in and not to a country that limped into the war once the two main protaginists had fought themselves to a standstill.

Oh and for all you conspiracy theorists out there the UK definitely held back intelligence on the impending Pearl Harbour attack.
[/b][/quote]

But surely you could see Americas reasons for staying out of World War II, especially after the way they were slaughtered in World War One, why should they have fought in a European War? It affected New Zealand because back than We relied on England for everything.

And last time I checked, there is more to the Pacific than Australia and New Zealand, Japan rolled the British and the French elsewhere, and Darwin was destroyed easy enough, I highly doubt Australia, let alone NZ had the sort of Air Defences to stop that happening all over the country. Sure, your (and my Grandparents) we owe everything, but to say America don't deserve any gratidude for their role in almost singlehandily driving back the Japanese and retaking the Pacific, as well as thier efforts in the European theatre?
[/b][/quote]

We'd owe the American's something if they did it for US... they didn't, in fact it was directly in their interests to be involved in WWII, and if you do a bit of digging (ie: research, and not just your high school text books) you'll see that they were looking for a reason that would commit them to the war and even went to the extent of sinking German U boats (secretly and then leaked the information to Germany) to try and provoke them into attacking the US forces somewhere. The Japanese were nasty buggers, but in reality they were trying to achieve the same thing as everyone else... I know it's hard for a teenager to accept that real life isn't a cowboy movie ripper, but don't tell us we have to thank the Americans for WWII when they'd not have cared in the slightest if it was in their interest to see Japan take the pacific.

 

[Ripper]

<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
Western v. Eastern isn't a new thing. To put things in perspective this battle has been going on since the Crusades. It's easy for people in western society to disclaim Christianity and therefore remove themselves from the actions of the Crusaders, but it's not that simple. We are the decendants and the modern Islamic world are decendants also. Their culture has changed very little, while ours has evolved greatly. Regardless, whatever the current situation is, it's nothing new. The one thing that baffles me is why would people who seemingly loath western society move into the heart of it? Why are muslims who hate Western Society moving to London, and New York, Paris and L.A? Honestly, I don't fancy the Islamic lifestyle and/or culture, and for that reason alone, you don't see me rushing to move to Baghdad.
[/b]

and do you know why it hasen't changed yet ? 'cause the muslim religion is 600 years late on the christian one ... look at 600 years ago in europe, its back to 1400 ... and what was the christian religion at that time : inquisition ... exactly what muslims are doing right now. the methodes are quite different due to the time but the goals are the same BURN HERETIC BURN !!! that sums everything
[/b][/quote]

So it's all justified because the French burnt some witches at the stake 600 years ago?

What happened to the peaceful religion that is Islam? If I form my own religion today, can I crucify you because the Jews/Romans crucified Jesus 2000 years ago? Preety please?

Originally posted by Frog Man+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Frog Man)</div>

now the muslim world, helped by the islamists has turned into an anti american and more widely anti western feeling. we could all thank our favourit george !!! (damn mo****f*****) !!! america the land of freedom, the home of the braves ... but it has been 60 years now since the braves are gone ... [/b]

Yeah, It's all Georges fault they crashed those planes into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon! Its all George Bush's fault that Muslims refuse to assimilate into their adopted countries and expect everybody to convert to thier ways. It's all George Bush's fault the French went soft on Saddam and allowed to him sell oil so he can rebuild his army and let his people starve.

<!--QuoteBegin-Frog Man
all the money we got from them for making war and we had to give it back (but that's a normal thing).

Yeah, well, thats what generally happens in a Loan.
[/b][/quote]

:lol2tn: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol2tn:

This is what happens when you get all your information from FOX news people.
[/b][/quote]

And where do I get access to Fox News?

So tell me Mr SANZAR, do you think that Muslims are assimilating perfectly into their adopted countries, and there are no radical groups who just want to convert everyone else (Like that Muslim Leader who got jailed awhile ago saying he won't rest until "The Flag of Islam flies above Downing Street"

And do you deny the fact the French tried to lift the sanctions against Iraq - http://english.people.com.cn/english/20000.../iraq-s28.shtml

All thewhile Saddam was still letting his people starve from selling illegal oil, while keeping the money for himself - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3549537.stm (The Sainted BBC says it happened, so it must be true.)

And I suppose you believe all those "Documentries" like "Loose Change" on YouTube which make such claims as "The Twin Towers fell faster than the speed of Gravity" and that 9/11 was all George Bush's fault?

And of course George Bush started all those riots with the Cartoons and the Pope, where Thousands of Muslims marched all around European holding such lovely signs like :

Massacre those who insult Islam... lovely.

Originally posted by Red Rabbit
We'd owe the American's something if they did it for US... they didn't, in fact it was directly in their interests to be involved in WWII, and if you do a bit of digging (ie: research, and not just your high school text books) you'll see that they were looking for a reason that would commit them to the war and even went to the extent of sinking German U boats (secretly and then leaked the information to Germany) to try and provoke them into attacking the US forces somewhere. The Japanese were nasty buggers, but in reality they were trying to achieve the same thing as everyone else... I know it's hard for a teenager to accept that real life isn't a cowboy movie ripper, but don't tell us we have to thank the Americans for WWII when they'd not have cared in the slightest if it was in their interest to see Japan take the pacific.

Where did I say anything about the Pacfic, I was askig BigTen why the Americans should've felt so obliged to have gone into the European War, because according to most convential maps i've seen theres a bit of a trek between the Pacific and Europe... unless of course all these maps are nothing more than tools of the propoganda machine.

And whatever their reasons, do you think that the Japanese would've been defeated without the Americans?

 

[O'Rothlain]

<div class='quotemain'>
blame canada

[/b]

Alright! I admit it! That North Korean guy with the weird hair is our puppet! Steven Harper has his fingers up the man's ass and practices ventroloquism! There was no bomb, we just made a really fat man jump up and down a few times really, really fast. And we've been feeding him with all the food from the UN!
[/b][/quote]
Funny...

I'm starting a new thread relating to "World Political Situations" so we can leave North Korea to North Korean arguments. See you there!

 

[St Helens RLFC]

Ripper has truth on his side, he is an army.

 

[sanzar]

And where do I get access to Fox News?

So tell me Mr SANZAR, do you think that Muslims are assimilating perfectly into their adopted countries, and there are no radical groups who just want to convert everyone else (Like that Muslim Leader who got jailed awhile ago saying he won't rest until "The Flag of Islam flies above Downing Street"

And do you deny the fact the French tried to lift the sanctions against Iraq - http://english.people.com.cn/english/20000.../iraq-s28.shtml

All thewhile Saddam was still letting his people starve from selling illegal oil, while keeping the money for himself - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3549537.stm (The Sainted BBC says it happened, so it must be true.)

And I suppose you believe all those "Documentries" like "Loose Change" on YouTube which make such claims as "The Twin Towers fell faster than the speed of Gravity" and that 9/11 was all George Bush's fault?

And of course George Bush started all those riots with the Cartoons and the Pope, where Thousands of Muslims marched all around European holding such lovely signs like :

Massacre those who insult Islam... lovely.
[/b]

I'm not one to defend Islam ripper, I personally loath all religion and think we could probably do without it (no offence O'Rothlain)... my gripe with you is that you have a black and white view of the current conflict with Islamic fundamentalists... Your understanding of the middle east seems to simply be "They hate the west so we have to kill them all!"
Islam has more than their fair share of nuts, but do you actually understand why so many people in the middle east hate the west? Really, I want to know your take on this, because like it or not the reality isn't as simple as they want us all to be Muslims...

Why would I deny that the French tried to lift sanctions on Iraq? They considered it to be in their interest at the time, and so that's what they did! You seem to be mistaking me with someone who thinks there's "goodies and badies" in world politics again. But just for the record, the French aren't the only people from the West to have dealt with Iraq-

As I said Ripper, I'm simply contesting the view that the US and the west are on the side of "good" as your emotive language suggests. We do what's in our interest, no more no less and in reality we rarely give a f*** who dies in pursuit of that.

Loose Change? Yeah, that's all a little bit much, I put it in the same category as FOX, just at the other end of the political spectrum.

As for Bush, well I don't blame him for anything, as he's so utterly incoherent and incompetent that I'm positive it's Cheney and Rumsfeld who do his thinking for him.

Where did I say anything about the Pacfic, I was askig BigTen why the Americans should've felt so obliged to have gone into the European War, because according to most convential maps i've seen theres a bit of a trek between the Pacific and Europe... unless of course all these maps are nothing more than tools of the propoganda machine.

And whatever their reasons, do you think that the Japanese would've been defeated without the Americans?
[/b]

Yes, as a matter of fact I do. There were a number of factors turning against the Japanese, the major ones being their occupation of China turning sour with the rise of communism (though it took a while) and the ending of the war in Europe which saw Russia's entire army head to Manchuria for an assault on Japan (this, by the way is why the American's used the bomb on the Japs). The Americans were important in the war in the Pacific, but they didn't win it by themselves... It would have taken longer, but the Japanese were fighting a losing battle the moment they tried to occupy China.

 

[O'Rothlain]

No offense taken...I'll just have to sick Buddy Christ on you!

 

[sanzar]

For not using the quote system right

 

[Ripper]

I'm not one to defend Islam ripper, I personally loath all religion and think we could probably do without it (no offence O'Rothlain)... my gripe with you is that you have a black and white view of the current conflict with Islamic fundamentalists... Your understanding of the middle east seems to simply be "They hate the west so we have to kill them all!" [/b]

Where did I say we should kill them all? The only people who are saying that are the Muslims who take to the streets who think that Israel should be wiped off the map and all those who don't believe should be put to the sword

Islam has more than their fair share of nuts, but do you actually understand why so many people in the middle east hate the west? Really, I want to know your take on this, because like it or not the reality isn't as simple as they want us all to be Muslims... [/b]

So how do you explain the fact that Thousands of Muslims in places like Paris and Stockholm take to the streets whenever Mohammed or Allah is insulted, holding signs saying to commit Genocide against Israel and kill you and me if we don't convert to their faith?

Why would I deny that the French tried to lift sanctions on Iraq? They considered it to be in their interest at the time, and so that's what they did! You seem to be mistaking me with someone who thinks there's "goodies and badies" in world politics again. But just for the record, the French aren't the only people from the West to have dealt with Iraq-

As I said Ripper, I'm simply contesting the view that the US and the west are on the side of "good" as your emotive language suggests. We do what's in our interest, no more no less and in reality we rarely give a f*** who dies in pursuit of that.[/b]

Once again, where have I said that the US are the "Good Guys" while the Muslims are "Bad"... its you who thinks that America = Bad while Any country which is against America = Good, Heroic Freedom fighters who were innocently minding their own business when they were vicously attacked by America (Or Israel) for no reason at all

Loose Change? Yeah, that's all a little bit much, I put it in the same category as FOX, just at the other end of the political spectrum.[/b]

Really, Fox News at least reports the truth on most non-political things, which is the majority of its coverage. Documentries like Loose Change, the only facts they contain is the place names and the Name of the person who made it.

As for Bush, well I don't blame him for anything, as he's so utterly incoherent and incompetent that I'm positive it's Cheney and Rumsfeld who do his thinking for him.[/b]

For such a dumbarse, he still seemed able enough to graduate with Degrees from both Harvard and Yale - although I suppose they just hand those out to random people on the street.

Yes, as a matter of fact I do. There were a number of factors turning against the Japanese, the major ones being their occupation of China turning sour with the rise of communism (though it took a while) and the ending of the war in Europe which saw Russia's entire army head to Manchuria for an assault on Japan (this, by the way is why the American's used the bomb on the Japs). The Americans were important in the war in the Pacific, but they didn't win it by themselves... It would have taken longer, but the Japanese were fighting a losing battle the moment they tried to occupy China.
[/b]

For a start, the Russians wouldn't have been able to get their without America, I remember reading somewhere that at same stage 30% of all supplies and a majority of the Oil the Russians used were from America. And of course, the only reason the Americans nuked Japan was of course to stop the Russians getting to to it first, it of course had nothing to do with the fact it stopped them having to launch a land invasion after already taken massive casualites to Island Hop their way through the Pacifc, and lose Hundreds of Thousands of more lifes on both sides.

And America did win the Pacific by themselves - what other major power helped them? The French were too busy collabrating with the Japanese in Indochina while the British had scedattled long ago. And it doesn't matter what might've happened in theory, the fact of the matter is, the Americans defeated the Japanese almost single handily in most places and that is written down in history.

 

[sanzar]

Wasn't so hard, was it?