One sided refereeing

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Of COURSE people (not on here) are starting to sound off about the bunker review system. Maybe I'm in a minority but as always I feel pepple conflate systems with the people who carry them out. Just like in football people decry VAR, but it's human beings using the tech and making bad decisions which is the problem.

The fact that there's been some controversial decisions doesn't mean the bunker system is bad.

No system for dealing with this can compensate for not having qualified and good decision makers using them

 

[ncurd]

Of COURSE people (not on here) are starting to sound off about the bunker review system. Maybe I'm in a minority but as always I feel pepple conflate systems with the people who carry them out. Just like in football people decry VAR, but it's human beings using the tech and making bad decisions which is the problem.

The fact that there's been some controversial decisions doesn't mean the bunker system is bad.

No system for dealing with this can compensate for not having qualified and good decision makers using them

Yeah the issue with the bunker not working is two fold. The decision makers themselves and a lack of explanation to the audience of the decision making.

One of the reasons these incidents (Farrell aside) have been less controversial in recent years is the ref was clearly explaining his thought process out loud with the TMO. This means even though the audience disagreed the ref they had the rationale. Now we have a system where we are not show what happens or decision making process itself.

I think the bunker is great for speeding up the game in these moments and for in time getting better decisions made. But it definitely need tweaking. I'd go for a quick replay with bunker decision maker talking through the decision when informing the player if a yellow card stand or its being converted to red.

 

[Derpus]

Yeah the issue with the bunker not working is two fold. The decision makers themselves and a lack of explanation to the audience of the decision making.

One of the reasons these incidents (Farrell aside) have been less controversial in recent years is the ref was clearly explaining his thought process out loud with the TMO. This means even though the audience disagreed the ref they had the rationale. Now we have a system where we are not show what happens or decision making process itself.

I think the bunker is great for speeding up the game in these moments and for in time getting better decisions made. But it definitely need tweaking. I'd go for a quick replay with bunker decision maker talking through the decision when informing the player if a yellow card stand or its being converted to red.

God I hate this. Maybe I am in the minority, particularly on a rugby forum with a bunch of rugby nerds, but I just want the damn game to continue. I don't want rugby analysis or a lecture. I just want a decision and play on. Triple that sentiment if you are sitting in the stands, you can't hear anything and you're all just sitting there sipping your beer wondering why you paid $150 to watch some cnuts hang out on a field having a chat.

It's gotten a little better recently but for a while there would be full 5 minute breaks in play where nothing happened.

 

[ncurd]

God I hate this. Maybe I am in the minority, particularly on a rugby forum with a bunch of rugby nerds, but I just want the damn game to continue. I don't want rugby analysis or a lecture. I just want a decision and play on. Triple that sentiment if you are sitting in the stands, you can't hear anything and you're all just sitting there sipping your beer wondering why you paid $150 to watch some cnuts hang out on a field having a chat.

I don't think you read or understood the rest of my post...

It takes 30 seconds probably to explain a bunker decision to the audience. That's all I'm suggesting as a tweak.

 

[Half Pint]

yes exactly, if it's for holding on, not rolling away etc, not trumped; high tackle, late tackle, etc yes - trumped

Got it. thanks for clarifying.

 

[Horacito]

Anyone else disappointed with refs so far? Underwhelming at the very least. I was watching a game the other day and one of the players clearly stepped over the line while chasing a kick, the ref didn't see it, the TMO didn't correct it and the underdog got a try scored agains because nobody was competent enough to check the call.

It's like TMO are not enhancing refereeing, but rather making it worse

if rugby wants to grow, a competent and trustworthy refereeing corps is vital to the institution, it's a matter of legitimacy almost
and it wasn't jacko peyper btw lol

 

[Saintjay]

Anyone else disappointed with refs so far? Underwhelming at the very least. I was watching a game the other day and one of the players clearly stepped over the line while chasing a kick, the ref didn't see it, the TMO didn't correct it and the underdog got a try scored agains because nobody was competent enough to check the call.

It's like TMO are not enhancing refereeing, but rather making it worse

if rugby wants to grow, a competent and trustworthy refereeing corps is vital to the institution, it's a matter of legitimacy almost
and it wasn't jacko peyper btw lol

I'd strip the TMO back to how it was originally meant to be. Call up on the obvious on field errors or for serious foul play.

I would rather rugby went back to respecting the refs decision. Rather than wanting the TMO calling on every off side, side entry and every other infraction possible

 

[dirty harry]

I find this discussion fascinating, I agree there is a bit of bias toward tier 1 teams but it isnt prevalent from the off.

I find it's happening in the last 10, when things are getting tighter, there is a bias that the 'stronger' team are doing the right things.

Take the scrum, it's so convoluted to ref this refs are looking for either a quick out, or guessing at random. The amount of times you see a loosey get the upper hand only to lose his bind as his opposition number folds and be penalised for it, or the front rows to collapse, and the prop over extended or hyper flex get penalised even tho it's clearly not their issue.

Let's be honest, at the breakdown a pen can be called by the ref every time, I would say if you re watch Fiji v Wales, or even more so Argentina V Japan, you will see 2 teams get away with murder at the breakdown. Carley and OKeefe try to allow play, but they allow the attacking side carte blanche. Both Fiji and Argentina constantly went beyond the ruck and found players to mess with, taking non ruck defenders off their feet etc.

Carley gets a hiding for that late Fiji surge, and partially rightly so. But he really could've called 3/4 pens against Fiji in that late period, and didnt want to yellow a 2nd Welsh player for persistent (because teams dont lose 2 players for persistent infringing).

I dont think the ref standard is all that low, I just think the pressure is huge from world rugby, the empathy for the game has gone, and refs just want to be justifiably correct, so when they sit in the analysis suite they can justify their decisions.


Makes Nigel Owen's even more impressive, understanding it was an entertainment first.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I'd strip the TMO back to how it was originally meant to be. Call up on the obvious on field errors or for serious foul play.

I would rather rugby went back to respecting the refs decision. Rather than wanting the TMO calling on every off side, side entry and every other infraction possible

I think both football and rugby are both discovering in their separate ways that refereeing with these new review systems is still only as good as the weakest link in the system, whether that's the 1st or 4th official.

A separate issue which feels unique to rugby is the relatively poor level of public understanding of the rules, not made any easier by the fairly complex nature of the rules and ambiguity and inconsistency in application.
I think a lot of the time the average spectator doesn't have a clue what's going on. When I used to go to wasps games before, y' know, I'd often have to explain to my dad why a penalty was given - and he's watched an absolute ton of rugby.

I liked the idea above of at least quickly flashing up reasons for decisions on screen, including for tmo decisions.

Despite the football Comparison I made, rugby has bigger issues. The scrum hasn't been a particular issue this world cup but I still don't feel good about it given how important it is and how random the decisions can be.

 

[retired9]

A separate issue which feels unique to rugby is the relatively poor level of public understanding of the rules, not made any easier by the fairly complex nature of the rules and ambiguity and inconsistency in application.

This is a big one, it's amazing how the armchair experts in rugby can be so so far from accurate with their attempt at understanding the laws of the game - people literally spout any old sh*** when it suits them when they clearly don't know the rules. It's a monster of a job for referees even at the best of times, especially at internation game pace.

Overall, I don't have a problem with the bunker system, it has removed the instant red card which is a good thing IMO. The refs don't really need extra on-field pressure and it disrupts the flow of the game deliberating. I think there is room for an on field red decision if it is so blatantly clear from the replay that dangerous play has occurred. In this scenario I think the on field ref should work on the lines of "I'm at a red card decision, does the TMO have any reason to review for mitigation?".

Scrums have been better in terms of not contacntly getting reset, although still there is an apparent inability for professional guys to keep the scrum up. Is this poor technique? The opponent getting one up on you every time? Clever buying of penalties? From the player safety point of view crouch/touch/engage was not great, although the hit without prebind maybe meant the props were less bold in their strategies, knowing that getting the bind was key.

 

[dirty harry]

This is a big one, it's amazing how the armchair experts in rugby can be so so far from accurate with their attempt at understanding the laws of the game - people literally spout any old sh*** when it suits them when they clearly don't know the rules. It's a monster of a job for referees even at the best of times, especially at internation game pace.

Overall, I don't have a problem with the bunker system, it has removed the instant red card which is a good thing IMO. The refs don't really need extra on-field pressure and it disrupts the flow of the game deliberating. I think there is room for an on field red decision if it is so blatantly clear from the replay that dangerous play has occurred. In this scenario I think the on field ref should work on the lines of "I'm at a red card decision, does the TMO have any reason to review for mitigation?".

Scrums have been better in terms of not contacntly getting reset, although still there is an apparent inability for professional guys to keep the scrum up. Is this poor technique? The opponent getting one up on you every time? Clever buying of penalties? From the player safety point of view crouch/touch/engage was not great, although the hit without prebind maybe meant the props were less bold in their strategies, knowing that getting the bind was key.

To be fair to what you call 'armchair experts' which is about 90% of any sports fanbase btw, the laws of rugby arent easy, and are consta fly updating and changing.

I've had to explain to people why kicking the conversion doesnt solidify the try any more, why diving on a loose ball within a metre of a ruck isnt allowed, or even the difference between painting a picture and why refs allow the jackle palms up, and not palm down when players clearly have their weight on the floor.

I would consider myself a decent level ref, and a high level coach even though I left that career behind and havnt coached for a few years, however even I lose track of changes every now and then. It isnt an easy sport to follow. When in comparison to something like football, where the most complex law is the offside, it is wild to think everyone can stay up to date

 

[retired9]

To be fair to what you call 'armchair experts' which is about 90% of any sports fanbase btw, the laws of rugby arent easy, and are consta fly updating and changing.

I've had to explain to people why kicking the conversion doesnt solidify the try any more, why diving on a loose ball within a metre of a ruck isnt allowed, or even the difference between painting a picture and why refs allow the jackle palms up, and not palm down when players clearly have their weight on the floor.

I would consider myself a decent level ref, and a high level coach even though I left that career behind and havnt coached for a few years, however even I lose track of changes every now and then. It isnt an easy sport to follow. When in comparison to something like football, where the most complex law is the offside, it is wild to think everyone can stay up to date

Oh absolutely, I was referring to the drunken pub "experts" and the morons on Facebook by and large. To be a casual observer is one thing, to open your mouth and prove an ignorant observer is another.

I managed to explain the game to my wife in 2 mins in enough detail that would mean anyone could understand the principles. It isn't a complicated concept, the challenge is in the detail and what is deemed a fair contest and what isn't.

Are you of UK locality Harry?

 

[dirty harry]

Oh absolutely, I was referring to the drunken pub "experts" and the morons on Facebook by and large. To be a casual observer is one thing, to open your mouth and prove an ignorant observer is another.

I managed to explain the game to my wife in 2 mins in enough detail that would mean anyone could understand the principles. It isn't a complicated concept, the challenge is in the detail and what is deemed a fair contest and what isn't.

Are you of UK locality Harry?

Hey, I am one of those drunken pub 'experts' lol In that I mean friends hate watching rugby live with me, I think I'm full of 'fun facts' and reasoning of why the ref calls a call... they think I'm a know it all **** hahahaha

I certainly am sir, sadly.

 

[ShropshireAllBlack]

Hey, I am one of those drunken pub 'experts' lol In that I mean friends hate watching rugby live with me, I think I'm full of 'fun facts' and reasoning of why the ref calls a call... they think I'm a know it all **** hahahaha

I certainly am sir, sadly.

The challenge with a knowledge of the laws while watching in a pub environment, is that you can find yourself explaining things that people don't want to hear. As an Irish expat living in rural England, agreeing & justifying a ref's decision that isn't favourable to the English team, isn't always welcome.

 

[dirty harry]

The challenge with a knowledge of the laws while watching in a pub environment, is that you can find yourself explaining things that people don't want to hear. As an Irish expat living in rural England, agreeing & justifying a ref's decision that isn't favourable to the English team, isn't always welcome.

Hey it's not just opposing teams, 6N at 2022 I was at Wales v Italy, I sat there all through the 2nd half criticising a very poor Welsh performance, explaining how the refs decisions were right, and I swear on 60 odd minutes I said out loud 'Italy are going to nick this'.

An elderly man turned around in front of me and said 'stop being so negative, no way Italy will beat us'.

I still remember when that ball was landing in Capuozzos arms with a disjointed chase I poked him and said 'watch this'

He was fuming, at least 3 people sat around me blamed me for the loss lol

 

[retired9]

Hey it's not just opposing teams, 6N at 2022 I was at Wales v Italy, I sat there all through the 2nd half criticising a very poor Welsh performance, explaining how the refs decisions were right, and I swear on 60 odd minutes I said out loud 'Italy are going to nick this'.

An elderly man turned around in front of me and said 'stop being so negative, no way Italy will beat us'.

I still remember when that ball was landing in Capuozzos arms with a disjointed chase I poked him and said 'watch this'

He was fuming, at least 3 people sat around me blamed me for the loss lol

You do have to remember though, they are Welsh