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pool of death?

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shtove

Guest
It is quite staggering to read so much ignorance about Argentina on a rugby forum like this.

Ireland don't win in France. Thats cast in stone. Ireland play there every second year but struggle to ever win, or compete with France. In contrast Argentina lost against France by one point in november 2006 and won the previous match in France in November 2004. On that day they defeated France in Marseilles. No other team has eveer done this. Australia tired the following year and lost. Even the All Blacks haven't beaten France in Marseilles. Also, the week before Argentina defeated France in 2004 Australia had lost to France.

Argentina without most French based players (16 are in the World Cup squad of 30) defeated Ireland two games to nil. Argentina swapped players for the two games and still won both without most first choice players in every position. They had players such as Leonelli, Senillosa, Stortoni, Vergallo, Avramovic, Guiñazú, Henn, Bouza, Fessia, Cardinali, Cortese, Stuart, López Fleming, Juan Fernández Miranda, de Vedia and Gamborini playing these games. None of these players have been selected in the World Cup squad. Then there were other players who don't play in France, like Ignacio Fernandez Lobbe, who didn't play against Ireland either.

In the two games before that, Ireland beat Argentina both times by 1 point. In 2003 it was in the World Cup after the referee didn't penalize Ireland in the closing minutes. Argentina should have been awarded a penalty which would have been kicked into points. O'Driscoll wasn't breaking the defensive line at all. There was one try scored after Argentine messed up a lineout and the ball freakeshly set up for Keith Wood to send Alan Quinlen, a flanker, away for a try.

In the other match, in November 2004, Ireland won at the very end of the game after Ronan O'Gara dropped kicked a goal. O'Driscoll and co couldn't break the defence in that game (like in the RWC) and Ireland won at the games end after scoring a grand total of zero tries. [/b]

Best wishes to Argentina - but they will be blown away by the Irish attack. I know that's not likely on past form, but I'm looking forward to Ireland taking 80% of the points from 40% of the possession. It will be a more intense version of the Ireland-Italy match from the 6N, and should be over by the end of the 3rd quarter. Arg should focus on the French match - except they'll have lost that one before they get to Ireland.

That's my prediction - laugh all you want.
 
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Melhor Time

Guest
I'm happy you are confident.

Incase you aren't familiar with Argentina's likely XV I'll just cover the backs.

9 Pichot, who is better than Stringer significantly, will comand the game.

10 Hernández, who is likely to play here, has been the worlds premier fullback for two years and has successfully played at 10 for Stade Français and Argentina. He is termd the Magician in France and is far far more dangerous tha Ronan O'Gara. Pair him with Felipe Contepomi at 12.....

12 Felipe Contepomi, the best Irish based flyhalf with good defence and clearly exceptional attacking abilities.

13 Tiesi, more than a handful for anybody.

15 Corleto, a very good fullback. Certainly up to the challenge of Dempsey or Muphy.

11 / 14 Nuñez P and Borges are solid on defence too and are dangerous with ball in hand.

The only concern could be goal kicking. But Todeschini will be on the bench if required.
 
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shtove

Guest
9 Pichot, who is better than Stringer significantly, will command the game.

[/b]

Yes, he's better - better inspiration, better moves etc etc. But he's not a winner. Stringer has been there, again and again. Pichot looks good, doesn't deliver.
10 Hernández, who is likely to play here, has been the worlds premier fullback for two years and has successfully played at 10 for Stade Français and Argentina. He is termd the Magician in France and is far far more dangerous tha Ronan O'Gara. Pair him with Felipe Contepomi at 12.....

[/b]

Good luck trying to outplay the world's most experienced #10 (apart from Larkham) with a guy who hasn't done much. There is hope - look at Wales, trying to replace Stephen Jones with James Hook. Hint: it's about scoring points + not conceding points.
12 Felipe Contepomi, the best Irish based flyhalf with good defence and clearly exceptional attacking abilities.

[/b]

:lol2tn: Felipe is great - it's just that he's a nutter with no idea how to win a tight match. Check out Leinster v Edinburgh in the HEC.
13 Tiesi, more than a handful for anybody.

15 Corleto, a very good fullback. Certainly up to the challenge of Dempsey or Muphy.

11 / 14 Nuñez P and Borges are solid on defence too and are dangerous with ball in hand.

[/b]

Uuuuuh - Ireland's lineup blows these guys away:

12: D'arcy v Contepomi
13: BOD v Tiesi
11/14: Horgan/Carney/Hickey v Nunez/Borges
15: Dempsey v Corleto
Hernandez at 15 is the only outstanding player Arg have out wide.


Goal kicking may be a problem for Argentina? I refer you to Mr O'Gara for the 2nd best way to win a match.
 
R

Ripper

Guest
And Ireland are after all a team of winners who know how to graft out those close games... as seen bulging Trophy Cabinet, full to the brim with 8th Place World Cup Ribbions and the Triple Crown Booby Prize for those many bottled 6 Nations Campaigns.
 
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Melhor Time

Guest
Shtove

I am sorry to say this, but after reading your respone you are more ignorant the people I was initially replying to.

Your post is guess work, intentially written to talk down one teams chances in favour of another. You are clearly one eyed. Its not objective let alone informed.

For instance you think Pichot is 'not a winner'. Have you not seen him captain Argentina to wins over England, France, Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy? Have you not seen him captain Stade Français to the French championship.

Saying Hernández 'is a guy who hasn't done much' is not a very good way of making a point. Have you seen him play? He was voted World Player of the Year in France. He is outstanding. He has won two titles for Paris, he has been integral in wins over higher ranked countries. If you think he needs to have international trophies in the cabinet then please tell me how this is possible when Argentina don't play in the 6N or 3N.

These Irish backs you keeps talking about haven't scored tries agaisnt Argentina so why will it be any different this year? Ireland will pick 6 of the same 7 backs from the 2003 team. They will pick the same backs from the 2004 match. Argentina, though, will pick better backs.

You are basing your prediction of Ireland on the tries they scored against England and Italy. Argentina defeated both teams less than a year ago and did you with vastly different lineups. Wales vs Ireland and Scotland vs Ireland in the 6N were not good games at all. Ireland didn't score tries in these games. They won close games off goal kicking. Interesting since Argentina are better than both. Scotland haven't beaten Argentina since 1990 and Wales got destroyed in June 2006 in Buenos Aires by Argentina. The scoreline was lot different to wins Ireland ahs recorded over Wales in the same time.

Ireland lost to France in the 6N. Argentina are better against France than Ireland. Ireland don't win in France and hardly ever win against France at all. Argentina on the other hand have won 4 of the past 5 games agaisnt France and the only loss was by 1 point. Compare this to the various matches in which Ireland have been well beaten. 2006 for instance. France, experiementing with players, won agaisnt a full strength Irish team minus O'Driscoll this year. Certainly there is plenty of room to doubt Ireland chances.

Incase you forgot, Ireland don't score tries against Argentina. They kick goals. The 2003 team actually lost the World Cup match. Ireland gave awayu a penalty at the end of the game which the ref didn't award.... Again I have covered all the games between the two sides. They are very even and far from seeing 'Ireland dominate'. The smart money is on a narrow win to Argentina. I aren't from Argentina either.....
 
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shazbooger

Guest
Shtove. I am sorry to say this, but after reading your respone you are more ignorant the people I was initially replying to. Your post is guess work, intentially written to talk down one teams chances in favour of another. You are clearly one eyed. Its not objective let alone informed. [/b]
Your doing everything your accusing Stove of doing by talking up Argentina's team on the back of out of competition results. You say Argentinian players are great, and the Irish are not so great, we say the opposite. Its the nature of fans around the world really, and its all about opinion.

These Irish backs you keeps talking about haven't scored tries agaisnt Argentina so why will it be any different this year? Ireland will pick 6 of the same 7 backs from the 2003 team. They will pick the same backs from the 2004 match. Argentina, though, will pick better backs. [/b]
True, very true. Though it would be a bit naive to think that the Irish backline is the same unit as it was 4 years ago. On its day its a lethal unit. More importantly though this is the first time were going into a competition with a pack that can compete with most out there, containing some truly world class individuals. Thats where a lot of our confidence is coming from.
Ireland lost to France in the 6N. Argentina are better against France than Ireland. Ireland don't win in France and hardly ever win against France at all. Argentina on the other hand have won 4 of the past 5 games against France and the only loss was by 1 point. [/b]
Again, all very true. So I can see why the French must be worried about the Argintinians beating them in the opening match, cause thats all those stats point too. If you look at things that way, Argentina havent beaten an Ireland test team since 2000 (the two tests in June we not test level). So Argentina will obviously beat France, France will beat Ireland, and Ireland will beat Argentina. No point in playing the matches at all really cause stats dont lie do they?

Look, its going to be such a close call that were all getting nervous about it. Even the French arent sure whats going to happen. Thats the nature of international rugby.

There is little seperating Ireland France and Argentina. Whichever two go through I hope they do it convincingly. I'm just praying it doesnt go down to tries scored against the minnows.
 
M

Melhor Time

Guest
Logorrhea

I don't mean to say that his post is meaningless, but that it is based on his desire. If my opinion comes across suggesting that I want Argentina to win and this is therefore why they will win I appologise. I do want Argentina to win the Pool of death but have based my thought on watching the games. I think they have a superb group of new players, players they didn't have in the XV at the prevous World Cup. Hernández, Tiesi, Juan Fernández Lobbe, Leguizamón, Albacate, Borges and Ayerza are all terrific finds for Argentina. None made the team against Ireland at the previous World Cup. All bar Ayerza will start this time around.

Ireland have got D'Arcy and Wallace who are not spring chickens. The rest is a hang over from the 2003 RWC. Horan and Best are good finds but they are up against a front row which is better than they are. Trimble is a player I regard very highly. Carney and Bowe are good too but none will start the game ahead of Stringer, O'Gara and the Leinster backs.

When he mentioned Felipe Contepomi for Leinster I opted not to respond as we can all remember Ronan O'Gara against the All Blacks in 2005. Hewas utterly hopeless.

Seriously it is the biggest game of the World Cup. The two teams are as good as each other. I think France will beat the Irish and Argentina have a better chance against France than Ireland do. If Hernández gets the 10 shirt I think we could see some magic from the Argies. I am going to put $1000 on Argentina vs France if he is picked there.

Scuh a shame though as this is the best ever Irish team and the best ever Arg team. The French team is not their best ever but is very good. All three are above Australia and England in my opinion. Only NZ and South Africa are better.
 
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shazbooger

Guest
I think they have a superb group of new players[/b]
No doubt. I dont profess to know the Argentinian team inside out, but I understand where your coming from. Its the same for us really. I look down the teamsheet and I see players that are used to winning. Players that have played at consistently high levels, against the best in the world, and won their fair share. Players that have moved from celebrating a win every four years against England to being dissapointed at winning the triple crown. Means nothing to most nations but that is a massive shift in attitude for Irish rugby.

Seriously it is the biggest game of the World Cup. The two teams are as good as each other. Such a shame though as this is the best ever Irish team and the best ever Arg team. [/b]
Most definately agree there. Its a conflict that most rugby supports have. We all want Argentina to do well, but from an Irish point of view, we dont want it to be at our expense.
 
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RC

Guest
If Hernández gets the 10 shirt I think we could see some magic from the Argies. I am going to put $1000 on Argentina vs France if he is picked there.. [/b]

Wow, if he does get picked at 10 then i seriously wish you a hell of a lot of good luck.
That's a lot of money to bet against a French team that won't give a shite about their history against Argentina and will be more concerned on the fact that they are playing in the RWC at home in front of thousands of their fans.
 
D

DC

Guest
9. Pichot
10. Hernández
12. Felipe Contepomi
13. Tiesi
15. Corleto
11./14. Nuñez P and Borges

9. Stringer
10. O'Gara
12. D'arcy
13. O'driscoll
11./14. Trimble(?)/ Horgan
15. Dempsey

Heres how i say it goes down for each particular position.

9. Edge - Argentina, Stringer is alright but his constant bitching and moaning at the rucks causes more harm than good, often slowing down his delivery etc.

10. Edge - Even, Hernandez and O'Gara are both tremendous players, Hernandez may be much more of a running threat, but O'Gara makes up for it with his tremendous boot and good decision making.

12. Edge - Ireland, D'Arcy is quite possibly the best 12 in the world at the moment, the guy creates something from nothing time and time again, Contepomi is good but i really dont think he is on par with D'Arcy, i've always though Contepomi was more effective at 10 like he plays for Leinster.

13. Edge - Ireland, Brian O'Driscoll.. enough said.

11./14. Edge - Even (Possibly favouring Argentina), I dont know much about Nunez or Borges so i cant really comment on them, but I would most likely give the edge to Argentina because Horgan is good at straight runs where there arent a lot of defense or where he just has to shake a few defenders and score and Trimble can be a very effective winger when he's on, but ive seen some games where he plays horribly.

15. Edge - Even (Possibly favouring Ireland), When Dempsey is on, i believe he is one of the most effective full backs in the world, but remember key phrase is when he is on.

So overall the backlines of the two squads are about even, with the huge difference in my opinion coming in the centers. D'Arcy and O'Driscoll is the best center combo out there right now and its going to take one hell of a effort to shut them down.

Overall i'd give the edge to Ireland in this one, simply because the backlines may be even but the packs are very lopsided with Ireland finally acheiving a somewhat dominant pack in time for a world cup.
 
S

SPIDER18

Guest
And Ireland are after all a team of winners who know how to graft out those close games... as seen bulging Trophy Cabinet, full to the brim with 8th Place World Cup Ribbions and the Triple Crown Booby Prize for those many bottled 6 Nations Campaigns. [/b]

lol so true :D
 
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DonBilly

Guest
There is little seperating Ireland France and Argentina. Whichever two go through I hope they do it convincingly. I'm just praying it doesnt go down to tries scored against the minnows.
[/b]



That's likely that we'll see these three teams scoring as many tries as possible in case the number of victories is the same.
 
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paco1

Guest
9. Pichot
10. Hernández
12. Felipe Contepomi
13. Tiesi
15. Corleto
11./14. Nuñez P and Borges

9. Stringer
10. O'Gara
12. D'arcy
13. O'driscoll
11./14. Trimble(?)/ Horgan
15. Dempsey

Heres how i say it goes down for each particular position.

9. Edge - Argentina, Stringer is alright but his constant bitching and moaning at the rucks causes more harm than good, often slowing down his delivery etc.

10. Edge - Even, Hernandez and O'Gara are both tremendous players, Hernandez may be much more of a running threat, but O'Gara makes up for it with his tremendous boot and good decision making.

12. Edge - Ireland, D'Arcy is quite possibly the best 12 in the world at the moment, the guy creates something from nothing time and time again, Contepomi is good but i really dont think he is on par with D'Arcy, i've always though Contepomi was more effective at 10 like he plays for Leinster.

13. Edge - Ireland, Brian O'Driscoll.. enough said.

11./14. Edge - Even (Possibly favouring Argentina), I dont know much about Nunez or Borges so i cant really comment on them, but I would most likely give the edge to Argentina because Horgan is good at straight runs where there arent a lot of defense or where he just has to shake a few defenders and score and Trimble can be a very effective winger when he's on, but ive seen some games where he plays horribly.

15. Edge - Even (Possibly favouring Ireland), When Dempsey is on, i believe he is one of the most effective full backs in the world, but remember key phrase is when he is on.

So overall the backlines of the two squads are about even, with the huge difference in my opinion coming in the centers. D'Arcy and O'Driscoll is the best center combo out there right now and its going to take one hell of a effort to shut them down.

Overall i'd give the edge to Ireland in this one, simply because the backlines may be even but the packs are very lopsided with Ireland finally acheiving a somewhat dominant pack in time for a world cup.
[/b]


Interesting way of analyzing the match. I would have love to see the same thing, before the France NZ match in the 99`semi finals....
 
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shtove

Guest
I look forward to Pichot and Hernandez at half back - both very talented, but their partnership is going to get torn to pieces.
 
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el_tk

Guest
Hernandez didn't look like an international outhalf playing for Stade in the T14 and I only wonder how he's gonna do with David Wallace et al in his face all day.

While DC's analysis is mainly sound I believe Ireland have better wingers and that they'll use them more; despite the increased quality of Argentina's backline old habits die hard and they're not going to suddenly start whipping the ball around like Wales or something
 
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paco1

Guest
Hernandez didn't look like an international outhalf playing for Stade in the T14 and I only wonder how he's gonna do with David Wallace et al in his face all day.

While DC's analysis is mainly sound I believe Ireland have better wingers and that they'll use them more; despite the increased quality of Argentina's backline old habits die hard and they're not going to suddenly start whipping the ball around like Wales or something
[/b]


I tend to think of Irealnd and Argentina as 2 very even teams. However I read some of the irish posters talking as it were New Zealand against Uruguay..

I am starting to realize why: they think Wallace is as good as Mc Caw, D O´gara is a as good as Carter, D Arcy as Toeava, ect.

Falsh news, boys: England and France are the only NH teams that will ever win the RWC, besides that onlt Australia, New Zealand , and SA
 
D

DC

Guest
<div class='quotemain'>
Hernandez didn't look like an international outhalf playing for Stade in the T14 and I only wonder how he's gonna do with David Wallace et al in his face all day.

While DC's analysis is mainly sound I believe Ireland have better wingers and that they'll use them more; despite the increased quality of Argentina's backline old habits die hard and they're not going to suddenly start whipping the ball around like Wales or something
[/b]


I tend to think of Irealnd and Argentina as 2 very even teams. However I read some of the irish posters talking as it were New Zealand against Uruguay..

I am starting to realize why: they think Wallace is as good as Mc Caw, D O´gara is a as good as Carter, D Arcy as Toeava, ect.

Falsh news, boys: England and France are the only NH teams that will ever win the RWC, besides that onlt Australia, New Zealand , and SA [/b][/quote]

Well its not New Zealand against Urugauy, i tend to think about it as simply Ireland vs Argentina. Ireland is probably the number 2 team in the world right now, i still contest they are better than Australia and South Africa. Now Argentina isnt bad but i would say they are about on par with Wales at the moment.

D'Arcy is better than Toeava though..

But i dont know how you can say that England and France are the only NH teams, remember that the England team took an absolute beating from Ireland and Ireland essentially won the France game, minus the blip in concentration in the final minute or so.
 
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shazbooger

Guest
From an Irish point though, we are agreed on one thing. D'Arcy is better .................. far better.................. then Toeava.
 
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