Premiership Rugby 20/21 - Rd 19

[Which Tyler]

Didn't work so well with Tom/Will Homer

Well yeah, that's because Will was home grown - Bath's academy system is mostly for show - we prefer the LI development school

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Whatever you think of Simmonds / Chiefs, breaking the Premiership tries in a season record like that is some achievement.

You can't measure a player by number of tries, but equally knowing the way to the try line is a pretty handy trait. He's scored 19 this season, the same number as Binny has scored in 106 top flight matches.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Whatever you think of Simmonds / Chiefs, breaking the Premiership tries in a season record like that is some achievement.

You can't measure a player by number of tries, but equally knowing the way to the try line is a pretty handy trait. He's scored 19 this season, the same number as Binny has scored in 106 top flight matches.

The argument will always be made that Billy doesn't fill a role that ends in tries but yeah, it's not like Simmonds fills a different role competently, he absolutely excels at this different role whilst Billy is distinctly average at the one he fills. If England's setup doesn't work for the exceptional players the country is producing then it can be argued it's the England setup that needs to change. Jones should be creating a setup that makes the most of the resources available to him, not rigidly stick to a system that isn't working and expect the rest of England to nicely slot in. Granted you can't chop and change but 6 years is more than enough time to slightly adapt it and Jones has steadfastly refused to move away from a bashing 8 as much as he can help it. I think we now have the flankers and potentially players elsewhere to allow our 8 to no longer be simply a basher but someone more lightweight. England are already some of the best in the world at distributing workload between all the forwards.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Whatever you think of Simmonds / Chiefs, breaking the Premiership tries in a season record like that is some achievement.

You can't measure a player by number of tries, but equally knowing the way to the try line is a pretty handy trait. He's scored 19 this season, the same number as Binny has scored in 106 top flight matches.

It's only because Simmonds is always hiding out on the wing thinking he's a back.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

It's only because Simmonds is always hiding out on the wing thinking he's a back.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Either that or hides till they get on the try line.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

They did say something like 16 of the tries have been from within the 10(? 5m?) line

It's a great stat for Simmonds but it's more a testament to how powerful/efficient the chiefs pack are from that distance (plus how they use him at the back of the maul a lot )

 

[BPM]

Rugby Pass have posted a couple of articles on Simmonds this week:

'We created a system' - The former England No8 that helped mould Sam Simmonds

Lions selection for Sam Simmonds is one of 2021's biggest rugby stories but it might not have happened if Thomas Waldrom hadn't wowed Exeter.

www.rugbypass.com

'On certain moves and shapes, you can look at him like that eighth back'

With the dust settling on Tuesday night's try-scoring heroics, Exeter have shed light on some tactics used to make Sam Simmonds so explosive.

www.rugbypass.com

He is without doubt a very good player and 50 tries in 66 appearances is a phenomenal record for any position, let alone an 8. However, these articles really underline that the Exeter system is deliberately set up for him, which I very much doubt would happen with the Lions or with a England.

Key quote from Rob Baxter (slight bit of paraphrasing): "Rob Hunter talks a lot with every player we have here as a forward, putting combinations together about understanding your role within a team as a pack of forwards. Sam has got a deep understanding of his role ... but you have got seven other forwards in that pack who understand his role well."

That's fine and dandy at club level where that understanding can be honed and developed over an extended period of time. I don't think that can be done to the same degree in an international set-up and I think it would be almost impossible for the Lions where they're pulling together a group in a short space of time.

Also, while he's rightly being recognised for his try scoring, this creates a false perception of what a number 8s job is. In more or less any other team, the 8 would not be scoring those tries because they'd be doing other jobs. The media paints a picture that it's a simple choice between Sam Simmonds who is a try scoring machine vs. Billy Vunipola who is not, which is really missing the point.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Also, while he's rightly being recognised for his try scoring, this creates a false perception of what a number 8s job is. In more or less any other team, the 8 would not be scoring those tries because they'd be doing other jobs. The media paints a picture that it's a simple choice between Sam Simmonds who is a try scoring machine vs. Billy Vunipola who is not, which is really missing the point.

Agreed, but that's not to say that he wouldn't be more effective in another team doing other jobs to someone with a deeper understanding than obsessing over try counts. This paints him as a one trick pony, just because he's very good at the trick he's performing for Exeter doesn't mean that it's all he's capable of. IIRC his tackle counts are pretty high, so he's at least a legit double threat.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Rugby Pass have posted a couple of articles on Simmonds this week:

'We created a system' - The former England No8 that helped mould Sam Simmonds

Lions selection for Sam Simmonds is one of 2021's biggest rugby stories but it might not have happened if Thomas Waldrom hadn't wowed Exeter.

www.rugbypass.com

'On certain moves and shapes, you can look at him like that eighth back'

With the dust settling on Tuesday night's try-scoring heroics, Exeter have shed light on some tactics used to make Sam Simmonds so explosive.

www.rugbypass.com

He is without doubt a very good player and 50 tries in 66 appearances is a phenomenal record for any position, let alone an 8. However, these articles really underline that the Exeter system is deliberately set up for him, which I very much doubt would happen with the Lions or with a England.

Key quote from Rob Baxter (slight bit of paraphrasing): "Rob Hunter talks a lot with every player we have here as a forward, putting combinations together about understanding your role within a team as a pack of forwards. Sam has got a deep understanding of his role ... but you have got seven other forwards in that pack who understand his role well."

That's fine and dandy at club level where that understanding can be honed and developed over an extended period of time. I don't think that can be done to the same degree in an international set-up and I think it would be almost impossible for the Lions where they're pulling together a group in a short space of time.

Also, while he's rightly being recognised for his try scoring, this creates a false perception of what a number 8s job is. In more or less any other team, the 8 would not be scoring those tries because they'd be doing other jobs. The media paints a picture that it's a simple choice between Sam Simmonds who is a try scoring machine vs. Billy Vunipola who is not, which is really missing the point.

Surely the argument can be made that Eddie has also created a system around Vunipola and it then becomes a question of which system do we want? Very few players operate in isolation of a system and surely the role of a national coach is to look at the teams and systems around the country and try to produce one that will get the best result based on what is available? For a long time it was the Sarries team and system that England tried to emulate but now we are continuing to try to use a Sarries centric system when the players and team central to that are not firing on all cylinders. Surely now it is a case of looking at how it can be altered?

To my knowledge no teams that are currently having great success at club or international level have a system that revolves around a big 8 doing tons of donkey work except England. It seems the world is moving more towards dynamic 8's and we have some extremely dynamic 8's available but Jones flat out refuses to change his system to the players he has available. Is the fact Simmonds operates in a different system really a point to be held against him or a point about Jones' inflexibility?

 

[BPM]

Agreed, but that's not to say that he wouldn't be more effective in another team doing other jobs to someone with a deeper understanding than obsessing over try counts. This paints him as a one trick pony, just because he's very good at the trick he's performing for Exeter doesn't mean that it's all he's capable of. IIRC his tackle counts are pretty high, so he's at least a legit double threat.

I'm not suggesting he is a one trick pony. I'm just saying that's how it's currently being portrayed. It's also impossible to fairly judge him on things he doesn't get involved in at the moment

He's a good, energetic defender and makes his tackles but that's pretty much minimum expectation for a back row player.

The Exeter system means he's not performing the role of a number 8 outside of the scrum. He's more or less used as a third centre - Ali Hepher even described him as being 'like an 8th back'. It was meant in a positive way but it does highlight how different their approach is to most other teams.

The reality is that it's hard to compare him to other Number 8s as they're performing fundamentally different roles and IMO, we can't really consider him as a flanker when he's not performing that role either. He does clear rucks etc. and is decent over the ball, albeit without being a notable threat as a jackal. You could argue that he might do more of those things if given a different role, but then how can we judge him against players who are doing that as their core role?

It's strange - the Exeter system is great for him at club level and definitely highlights his strengths, but it's so different to the way pretty much any other teams set-up their back row so it makes it hard to figure out how he fits in to another system.

I know people have mooted him as the best 12 in England in a tongue in cheek way, but he's arguably got as much in common with the centres than he has with back row players in the Exeter set up.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Given that Eddie Jones won't build his game plan around Simmonds, we'll see how he gets on doing other things soon enough. He's a better pleyer now than when he got his England caps, but IMO it's no conincidence that the only time he looked good was when Italy rolled over to have their bellies tickled.

 

[BPM]

Surely the argument can be made that Eddie has also created a system around Vunipola and it then becomes a question of which system do we want? Very few players operate in isolation of a system and surely the role of a national coach is to look at the teams and systems around the country and try to produce one that will get the best result based on what is available? For a long time it was the Sarries team and system that England tried to emulate but now we are continuing to try to use a Sarries centric system when the players and team central to that are not firing on all cylinders. Surely now it is a case of looking at how it can be altered?

To my knowledge no teams that are currently having great success at club or international level have a system that revolves around a big 8 doing tons of donkey work except England. It seems the world is moving more towards dynamic 8's and we have some extremely dynamic 8's available but Jones flat out refuses to change his system to the players he has available. Is the fact Simmonds operates in a different system really a point to be held against him or a point about Jones' inflexibility?

I agree with the second paragraph, although I don't know if I'd agree that England have created a system around Billy Vunipola.

In any case, the simpler argument for me is that picking Billy requires much less of a re-shuffle elsewhere than picking Simmonds would.

That being said, I wouldn't pick Billy at this moment in time so it's a bit of a moot point either way!

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I agree with the second paragraph, although I don't know if I'd agree that England have created a system around Billy Vunipola.

In any case, the simpler argument for me is that picking Billy requires much less of a re-shuffle elsewhere than picking Simmonds would.

That being said, I wouldn't pick Billy at this moment in time so it's a bit of a moot point either way!

Given the amount of work Billy gets through carrying and how he is a go-to option, I'd say it is pretty heavily built around him, or at least a huge 8 that is solid but unremarkable, a bruising workhorse. Since we adopted this system we have completely swapped out our front row for a much more powerful and dynamic one, got an abundance of riches of top quality flankers and still have good locks. The entire pack has changed but the role we expect 8 to do hasn't changed at all in that same time. Surely if you are willing to shuffle to entire pack you should be willing to change the 8? Arguably he was there for a gameplan when Jones first came on the scene and hasn't changed the role of the 8 even as the rest of the team has changed around him.

Likewise with Ford and Farrell, that change was made when England had different players operating in a different way. It feels like Jones built an England around what he had to start but has not changed it as new players have been fed in and if anythign it almost seems like a lot of the players he is choosing already aren't suited to the system he is trying to shoehorn them into. Shouldn't we be saying now is the time to revamp the system as a whole? He's already stated that is something he wants to do so perhaps we should start seeing evidence of it? Changing the role of the 8 may not simply be a luxury to accommodate Simmonds but may be something that is becoming a necessity to compete in the modern game. Just as props have become more dynamic with old school props falling out of favour, so too might be the case for a wreckingball-that-isn't role at 8?

 

[BPM]

I agree with bits of this - in particular that we haven't really moved on from the gameplan put in place for Eddie Jones' first England team. However, I also think some of the personnel changes you've referenced are less to do with the system and simply ta natural churn of players. For example, switching from Cole to Sinckler was less about a change of style and more about the former being on the wane and the latter hitting his peak. On the other side of the scrum, Marler's inconsistent availability kind of dictates that it's more likely to be Mako or Genge.

In a similar way, we haven't been able to move on from Ford/Farrell as there really hasn't been a 12 putting their hand up and forcing a decision at 10.

 

[higgik]

I'm not suggesting he is a one trick pony. I'm just saying that's how it's currently being portrayed. It's also impossible to fairly judge him on things he doesn't get involved in at the moment

He's a good, energetic defender and makes his tackles but that's pretty much minimum expectation for a back row player.

The Exeter system means he's not performing the role of a number 8 outside of the scrum. He's more or less used as a third centre - Ali Hepher even described him as being 'like an 8th back'. It was meant in a positive way but it does highlight how different their approach is to most other teams.

The reality is that it's hard to compare him to other Number 8s as they're performing fundamentally different roles and IMO, we can't really consider him as a flanker when he's not performing that role either. He does clear rucks etc. and is decent over the ball, albeit without being a notable threat as a jackal. You could argue that he might do more of those things if given a different role, but then how can we judge him against players who are doing that as their core role?

It's strange - the Exeter system is great for him at club level and definitely highlights his strengths, but it's so different to the way pretty much any other teams set-up their back row so it makes it hard to figure out how he fits in to another system.

I know people have mooted him as the best 12 in England in a tongue in cheek way, but he's arguably got as much in common with the centres than he has with back row players in the Exeter set up.

Actually think that he could be an amazing IC, replacing Manu.

Shame he is with Lions, as summer would have been good time to try him there.
9 Robson
10 Smith
11 Big Joe
12 Simmonds S
13 Slade
14 May
15 Steward

 

[BPM]

I wasn't advocating that we play Simmonds at 12. My point was that his role at Exeter has as much in common with their centres as it does with the rest of their back row.

If he wanted to retrain as a 12 and proved to be equally effective, I'd be all for it, but picking him there for England with 0 actual game time there would be mental. A bit like when Eddie was trolling about Nowell at 7.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Actually think that he could be an amazing IC, replacing Manu.

Shame he is with Lions, as summer would have been good time to try him there.
9 Robson
10 Smith
11 Big Joe
12 Simmonds S
13 Slade
14 May
15 Steward

I'm getting flashback of he who must not be named for the club back row England centre...

 

[BPM]

I had the same thoughts ...

 

[Scotty]

Does anyone know how he stacks up vs other 8s/backrowers in terms of other stats defence, metres made. Ect.

He is an 8 because he is at the back of the scrum and ewers is a 6 because of his postion, but in open play they essentially swap roles(not exactly but you know) so id love to see a comparison