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Premiership Rugby 21/22 - Rd 5

BPM

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As far as Eddie is concerned, we may need neither :confused:o_O
 

Geordiefalcon

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"Harrison, 19, comes in to cover Gabriel Oghre, who will be away with England's autumn international squad.'

I thought Oghre was injured....surely hes not in the England AI squad??!!
 

Geordiefalcon

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Falcons v Bristol

15 Mike Brown,
14 Adam Radwan,
13 Ben Stevenson,
12 Max Wright,
11 Mateo Carreras,
10 Brett Connon,
9 Louis Schreuder;

1 Adam Brocklebank,
2 George McGuigan,
3 Trevor Davison,
4 Greg Peterson,
5 George Merrick,
6 Callum Chick,
7 Will Welch (captain),
8 Carl Fearns.

Replacements: 16 Jamie Blamire, 17 Kyle Cooper, 18 Richard Palframan, 19 Will Montgomery, 20 Gary Graham, 21 Cameron Nordli-Kelemeti, 22 Will Haydon-Wood, 23 George Wacokecoke.
 

TRF_Olyy

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"Harrison, 19, comes in to cover Gabriel Oghre, who will be away with England's autumn international squad.'

I thought Oghre was injured....surely hes not in the England AI squad??!!
Yeah, surely the cover is for his injury?

He trained with the squad a few weeks ago but he really shouldn't be anywhere near
 

Which Tyler

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Sunday, 3.00pm. BTSport
Ref:
Jack Makepeace (8th Premiership game).
TJs: Anthony Woodthorpe & Paul Dix.
TMO: Andrew Jackson.

Bath:
15 Tom de Glanville*
14 Anthony Watson*
13 Jonathan Joseph
12 Max Ojomoh*
11 Will Muir(*)
10 Danny Cipriani
9 Ollie Fox*

1 Beno Obano*
2 Tom Dunn*
3 Will Stuart
4 Josh McNally
5 Charlie Ewels* ©
6 Miles Reid*
7 Sam Underhill
8 Josh Bayliss*

16 Jacques du Toit, 17 Lewis Boyce, 18 D’Arcy Rae, 19 Mike Williams, 20 Tom Ellis*
21 Max Green, 22 Orlando Bailey*, 23 Ruaridh McConnochie(*)



Saracens:

15 Alex Goode
14 Sean Maitland
13 Alex Lozowski
12 Nick Tompkins
11 Max Malins
10 Owen Farrell ©
9 Aled Davies

1 Mako Vunipola
2 Jamie George
3 Marco Riccioni
4 Maro Itoje
5 Tim Swinson
6 Nick Isiekwe
7 Ben Earl
8 Billy Vunipola

16 Tom Woolstencroft, 17 Eroni Mawi, 18 Vincent Koch, 19 Andy Christie, 20 Sean Reffell
21 Ivan van Zyl, 22 Dom Morris, 23 Rotimi Segun


For Bath, I make that
11 first choice starters
2 2nd choice starters
2 3rd choice starter
1.4th choice starting XV - our best of the season - and TBH, both 3rd choicers have earned themselves 2nd choice status by now; but I'll stick with my pre-season pecking order for the time being.
 
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Geordiefalcon

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I think Saracens will win that one quite convincingly. They arent really up to speed yet, but still looked like a machine against us last week...and they have Maro back...
 

Geordiefalcon

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Bristol Team:

15. Ioan Lloyd (45 apps); 14. Toby Fricker (17 apps), 13. Jack Bates (7 apps), 12. Antoine Frisch (0 apps), 11. Alapati Leiua (85 apps); 10. Callum Sheedy (111 apps), 9. Harry Randall (70 apps); 1. Yann Thomas (72 apps), 2. Jake Kerr (6 apps), 3. Kyle Sinckler (24 caps), 4. Dave Attwood (c) (60 apps), 5. Joe Joyce (128 apps), 6. Sam Jeffries (34 apps), 7. Dan Thomas (90 apps), 8. Fitz Harding (11 apps).

System players: 16. Harry Thacker (56 apps), 17. Max Lahiff (31 apps), 18. John Afoa (71 apps), 19. John Hawkins (21 apps), 20. Jake Heenan (57 apps), 21. Andy Uren (118 apps), 22. Tom Whiteley (0 apps), 23. Charlie Powell (14 apps).
 

TRF_Olyy

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14. Toby Fricker (17 apps), 13. Jack Bates (7 apps), 12. Antoine Frisch (0 apps)
who is that GIF
 

Reiser99

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Do you mean Slade?

Whats your thoughts on him?
I think Slade is hard to judge. He's now one of the more experienced players, especially in terms of centre. He's had some great moments, but also some pretty meh ones too. However, he's also been stuck with Farrell very often, so you have to wonder what could he do with better player passing to him in space with quick ball.

For me the issue with the centres will not be resolved until Farrell goes because he is the weak link. He reduces the creativity within the team. If you play him then you don't want good attacking backs, you want strong, defensive backs who can chase.
 

Geordiefalcon

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So what is it that Jones, McCall, Gatland etc etc all see in Farrell?

I personally dont like Farrell in the side, and think hes a hinderance, but even my pals i go to the falcons with say he must be in the team...hes class.
 

Teddington Logic

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My view on Farrell is that his reputation is built on goal kicking %'s, where he is undeniably international class, but that obscures those areas where he is not international class eg very poor tackle technique, lack of vision/adaptability, petulance with officials, rigidity/slowness of thinking/following of Plan A).

There have always been better all round flyhalfs than Farrell eg Charlie Hodgson or George Ford but an obsession with kick %'s (which actually is a collective fault of coaches, commentators and media comparing everything to Johnny Wilkinson and the easily measurable KPI of kick % rather than the harder to measure reading of the game etc which JW was also world class at) has meant that Farrell has effectively become a fixture of the Establishment. In Group Think it then becomes difficult to countenance a squad without him.

If you look at the B&IL in the summer, this was the way things started. Everyone assumed Farrell would be in the squad because he was England captain and plays every game, irrespective of the fact that his game at international level had been very poor for at least the last 12 months. Therefore he was in the squad. In fairness to Gatland (one of the few things he got right IMO), Gatland eventually realised that once you strip everything else away, such as team captaincy and patronage within the management hierarchy, Farrell is just not (at the moment, if ever) an international standard fly half because there is way more to the game now than just kicking penalties delivered by a dominant pack. He is also not and never has been an international standard centre.
 

Which Tyler

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My view on Farrell is that his reputation is built on goal kicking %'s, where he is undeniably international class, but that obscures those areas where he is not international class eg very poor tackle technique, lack of vision/adaptability, petulance with officials, rigidity/slowness of thinking/following of Plan A).

There have always been better all round flyhalfs than Farrell eg Charlie Hodgson or George Ford but an obsession with kick %'s (which actually is a collective fault of coaches, commentators and media comparing everything to Johnny Wilkinson and the easily measurable KPI of kick % rather than the harder to measure reading of the game etc which JW was also world class at) has meant that Farrell has effectively become a fixture of the Establishment. In Group Think it then becomes difficult to countenance a squad without him.

If you look at the B&IL in the summer, this was the way things started. Everyone assumed Farrell would be in the squad because he was England captain and plays every game, irrespective of the fact that his game at international level had been very poor for at least the last 12 months. Therefore he was in the squad. In fairness to Gatland (one of the few things he got right IMO), Gatland eventually realised that once you strip everything else away, such as team captaincy and patronage within the management hierarchy, Farrell is just not (at the moment, if ever) an international standard fly half because there is way more to the game now than just kicking penalties delivered by a dominant pack. He is also not and never has been an international standard centre.
You're going to fit in well around here
 

Reiser99

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So what is it that Jones, McCall, Gatland etc etc all see in Farrell?

I personally dont like Farrell in the side, and think hes a hinderance, but even my pals i go to the falcons with say he must be in the team...hes class.
It is interesting, because there have been NZ fans on here who have previously said he's world class. I also don't know what they see in him. It was also evident during the B&IL tour when the players chose him for the leadership group. In terms of watching games I see almost 0 evidence of leadership, but the players seem to think he is a good leader. Maybe he just trains really, really well.
 

sCriv

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We're on our bye this week so I'll be cheering on Worcester to end Tigers win streak.
Thought they were fortunate to get the ref decisions they did vs Irish last week.
 

Which Tyler

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It is interesting, because there have been NZ fans on here who have previously said he's world class. I also don't know what they see in him. It was also evident during the B&IL tour when the players chose him for the leadership group. In terms of watching games I see almost 0 evidence of leadership, but the players seem to think he is a good leader. Maybe he just trains really, really well.
I've no doubt that he's a great galvanising influence on his team, especially off-field, and to a degree on-field too. Mental fortitude does have a value.
He's just a player who's never been as good as he was protrayed to be (and now, TBF, isn't as bad as he's made out to be), and is an absolutely terrible communicator with referees.

Of course, part of his problem is that he learned how to play in the international spotlight, and was given a pass for all his mistakes because he kicks goals competently and is aggressive in the tackle - like a mini-St.Jonny. It's just that, unlike Jonny, his kicking was merely competent-international rather than outstanding-international, his tackling was aggressive, but was often in the wrong place to even attempt a tackle. Beyond that, his pasing was fairly pedestrian (especially L=>R) and he showed no particular vision or reading of the game - but was absolutely superb in knowing the coach's playbook for that part of the pitch in that 5 minute window.

Initially he was a poor player at international level, but over the course of 60-odd caps he rose to the rank of competent FH at international level. I'm not convinced he was ever the best option available for England though. Then he shifted to IC which has been a real problem for England since Greenwood retired; and... he was only ever the best option available because Manu was always injured and Slade steadfastly refused to play in his best position.
 

TRF_Olyy

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By all accounts he's an incredibly good trainer/good rapport with coaches/real leader etc.
I remember reading an interview with Adam Jones this summer and he was saying he was blown away when watching him train with England, and Paul O'Connell was singing his praises as one of the biggest voices on the '13 Lions tour

Obviously doesn't translate to on pitch very well these days, but I can get why so many coaches are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt if he's ticking all these other boxes behind the scenes
 

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