SA rugby in trouble

[TRF_heineken]

I'm sitting here and wondering why hasn't World Rugby taken a stance yet on this issue??

I see the political party, the Freedom Front Plus has also now jumped on the wagon, asking the British High Commission to step in:
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/FF-Plus-appeals-to-British-to-help-them-fight-Bok-quotas-20150831

"We would ideally like to see pressure being applied on the South African government to cease any future political interference in rugby and kindly request your assistance herein," the party said in a memorandum handed to the British High Commission.

One political party goes to court because there isn't enough quotas in the team, the other asks the British High Commission to assist that there should be no more political interference.

I like that there is participation. But in all fairness these 2 parties doesn't fit the profile to get the message across properly. But I think we won't get far unless WR actually steps in and makes a call.

 

[ncurd]

I doubt World Rugby or the British High Commission want to touch this with a 10-foot barge pole and want to keep in at internal matter for SA. The British government hardly covered itself in glory in the apartheid era and probably is best staying as far away as possible. As for world rugby they probably see themselves as non-political entity and this is clearly the realm of politics unless the Springboks/SA government actually start enforcing quotas they probably will keep the entire topic at arms length.

For both groups getting involved only leads to trouble.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Its a sad state of affairs. On the one hand you have the average South African of whatever race who really does want to get along and do their bit to get the country really going forward. We have so much potential as a nation in so many fields. There are numerous challenges and I don't want to make light of our situation by down-playing any of them but FFS, if this country moves forward its despite our politicians and media who thrive on the divisive ideologies and policies they peddle on the backs of those who have legitimate qualms.

Using rugby as a political soap box is just one small example. I'm not just talking about the likes of the ANC, COSATU and these no-name 'pro-black' organizations but the FF+ and Afriforum 'pro-white' as well. Why now? Why rugby? As if one more or less black or white player in a rugby team is going to solve our issues. They're all just getting on the media bandwagon is all. And our rugby suffers for it just as every other facet of life in SA thanks to these lie-peddlers.

We're not going anywhere until the likes of the ANC stop trying to infiltrate every aspect of life in SA. The semi-official inquiry as to the race of Damian de Allende takes the cake. This government is approaching the absurdities the Apartheid era government were getting up to in its hayday. That's the other frustration; everything these clever manipulators do is 'non-official' and that makes them more dangerous than the previous regime in a lot of ways.

 

[User1245]

Steve-o,

Thank you so very much for posting this. Its a great real world example of what has actually happened in South African schools, and it ought to make some of the others posting in this thread reconsider their positions on this issue.

In this case, I am sure that not only did every one of those 18 black kids have the same opportunity as the white kids in that school, but those opportunities would have been available to all the other kids in that school regardless of their colour. They, of course, have either chosen a different sport, or no sport at all.

I would be interesting to see a photo of the school Football team from the same year.


The 2014 Staff photo from your old school gives some perspective too

Gosh the same principal is still there lol. What's also interesting to note is that SA has the largest ethnic Indian population out of India. Most of which are in KZN. I only remember playing against one Indian guy in 11 years of school boy rugby. And that was a school from Stanger. And if you know anything about Stanger, it's just Indians there.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I doubt World Rugby or the British High Commission want to touch this with a 10-foot barge pole and want to keep in at internal matter for SA. The British government hardly covered itself in glory in the apartheid era and probably is best staying as far away as possible. As for world rugby they probably see themselves as non-political entity and this is clearly the realm of politics unless the Springboks/SA government actually start enforcing quotas they probably will keep the entire topic at arms length.

For both groups getting involved only leads to trouble.

Well I think it's because World Rugby follows the English Law, and that their penalties are in Pounds Sterling. The other reason being that there is a law in WR's law book, that all players participating must be selected without prejudice with regard to race or sexual orientation or religion. @smartcooky once posted that clause on a thread.

My Guess is that by contacting the British High Commission, it will at least start an investigation.

 

[smartcooky]

Its a sad state of affairs. On the one hand you have the average South African of whatever race who really does want to get along and do their bit to get the country really going forward. We have so much potential as a nation in so many fields. There are numerous challenges and I don't want to make light of our situation by down-playing any of them but FFS, if this country moves forward its despite our politicians and media who thrive on the divisive ideologies and policies they peddle on the backs of those who have legitimate qualms.

Using rugby as a political soap box is just one small example. I'm not just talking about the likes of the ANC, COSATU and these no-name 'pro-black' organizations but the FF+ and Afriforum 'pro-white' as well. Why now? Why rugby? As if one more or less black or white player in a rugby team is going to solve our issues. They're all just getting on the media bandwagon is all. And our rugby suffers for it just as every other facet of life in SA thanks to these lie-peddlers.

We're not going anywhere until the likes of the ANC stop trying to infiltrate every aspect of life in SA. The semi-official inquiry as to the race of Damian de Allende takes the cake. This government is approaching the absurdities the Apartheid era government were getting up to in its hayday. That's the other frustration; everything these clever manipulators do is 'non-official' and that makes them more dangerous than the previous regime in a lot of ways.

You know what Stormer, from the perspective of an outsider looking in, I think transformation, or at least, the way transformation is being implemented, actually holds your nation back.

- - - Updated - - -

Well I think it's because World Rugby follows the English Law, and that their penalties are in Pounds Sterling. The other reason being that there is a law in WR's law book, that all players participating must be selected without prejudice with regard to race or sexual orientation or religion. @smartcooky once posted that clause on a thread.

Not exclusively selection heineken

[TEXTAREA]REGULATION 20. MISCONDUCT AND CODE OF CONDUCT

20.4 While it is not possible to provide a definitive and exhaustive list of the types of conduct, behaviour, statements or practices that may amount to Misconduct under these Regulations, by way of illustration, each of the following types of conduct, behaviour, statements or practices however or wheresoever undertaken are examples of and constitute Misconduct:

(c) acts or statements that are, or conduct that is, discriminatory by reason of religion, race, sex, sexual orientation, disability, colour or national or ethnic origin;[/TEXTAREA]


and

[TEXTAREA]REGULATION 20 - APPENDIX 1: CODE OF CONDUCT

1. All Unions, Associations, Rugby Bodies, Clubs and Persons:

1.13 shall not do anything which is likely to intimidate, offend, insult, humiliate or discriminate against any other Person on the ground of their religion, race, sex, sexual orientation, colour or national or ethnic origin;[/TEXTAREA]

 

[TRF_heineken]

You know what Stormer, from the perspective of an outsider looking in, I think transformation, or at least, the way transformation is being implemented, actually holds your nation back.

It does! And it's not just outsiders thinking like that.

The thought process is all wrong. Forcing transformation down our throats is just the wrong way to go. Now we sit with so many politicians and others in powerful positions who doesn't have the qualifications to be in that position, and who doesn't understand what his/her role is.

Our Parliament debates are something they should show on Comedy Central instead of the Parliament Channel.

Everythin is laughable and all the while the living standards are just declining at a rapid pace.

The question of "Why Now", it is because everyone is "GATVOL", sick and tired. the formation of public forums and launching campaigns is a start of people standing together, Something us afrikaner folk didn't always do as passionately as the rest of the local population. Fighting fire with fire seems like the only way to get our country back on track.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

You know what Stormer, from the perspective of an outsider looking in, I think transformation, or at least, the way transformation is being implemented, actually holds your nation back.

I believe that also. Its a tough one though, trying to redress past wrongs. I don't think anyone bar the most far right extremist loons (another minority of a minority of a minority that get far to big a share of the media pie) are trying to say some sort of speeding up of what I see as an unavoidable natural transformation simply by dint of the demographics of the country isn't necessary.

Its been 20 years though and though its naive to think that'd be enough to reach equality there are many questions to be asked. I can only speak from the experiences of muselfe and those I know though. I'm in the construction industry and I entered the job market right when the economy took a down-turn. It was rough going and I applied for a administrative job at our local council to review plan submissions. I got invited to do a test and know I got close enough to 100%. I was the only white guy invited (you have to fill in your race in the application) and after I was done I was thanked fr coming to write the test. I said somethig along the lines of thanks, its my pleasure, I hope to get the job. The guy looked at me half bemused and straight up told me I had no chance in hell and I was there as a bench-mark. If no non-white scored higher or at least 10% close to what I scored the position would remain unfilled until they did find someone to meet the criteria. Well there was a colored guy who got up along with me and you could just tell he had the test sorted as well. Going down in the elevator knowing this guy has it in the bag and you have no chance because of your lack of pigment just isn't a nice feeling. Long story short I had to go it alone and I am probably in a better position than what I would've been had I taken a council administrative job out of desperation.

My dad was a council engineer and he got BEE'd and we moved to Cape Town. The thing is he was asked if he could help out with the job still at higher pay and on a consultancy basis. he refused but the if he didn't one local government job would've effectively have been costing three times the rate it did at the expense of the tax payer and the only place it looks good is in the job creation stats helping paint a prettier if unsustainable and artificial picture. I can list countless such instances from persons I know intimately.

BEE, AA, quotas and such do help those directly benefitting from them, yes, but I feel one needs to question how big a pool and how big an impact that makes versus the downsides in that it stimmies- in a very real and direct way- SA's competitiveness, the economy and job creation long term. It also hampers any kind of real unity in the country.

But for every white guy who gets off better in the long run many just drop off the radar and the 1/3 of Boere living below the bread line and farm murders just isn't trendy and/or comfortable topics. Its somewhat of an embarrasment and politically incorrect to give a white beggar a hand.

 

[ncurd]

Well I think it's because World Rugby follows the English Law, and that their penalties are in Pounds Sterling. The other reason being that there is a law in WR's law book, that all players participating must be selected without prejudice with regard to race or sexual orientation or religion. @smartcooky once posted that clause on a thread.

My Guess is that by contacting the British High Commission, it will at least start an investigation.

I'm aware of the rule sand it does warrant mentioning. The issue is because of SA history WR would rather they didn't need to enforce it... If England were trying to stop gay players playing it would be a completely different ball game.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I'm aware of the rule sand it does warrant mentioning. The issue is because of SA history WR would rather they didn't need to enforce it... If England were trying to stop gay players playing it would be a completely different ball game.

Yeah, and I get that, but somewhere, somehow the World has to draw the line. Clearly we are at an impasse in sorting this out internally. So why not do what the UN did with our Apartheid Government and Sanction our ass.

 

[Mcfadden]

I just don't see when/how these sort of Government policies will end.

It keeps people in jobs. Pen pushers, paper shufflers and officials. They love it. They love the quota. Gives them a box to tick. Gives them something to do. And it gives them an opportunity to check off and update future arbitrary numbers.

I believe in certain outreach programs, scholarships, motivational actions, and increasing the wealth of blacks to have more of a choice about where they send their children to school. However, I also hope to see rugby not be so heavily concentrated in private schools. Which, the latter, seems to be a global problem.

You said something really interesting, Stormer (great posts btw). South Africa does have the potential to be a great nation in so many fields. But this stuff, I'm not saying it's easy, but boy it needs to be sorted in the right way in 2015.

 

[austingtir]

It will never be sorted until it becomes a world wide issue and SA is again banned from different sports like the original apartheid issue. So I would suggest nobody hold their breath as the fact is we dont live in a climate atm WW that is even close to fixing these issues.

The white kid that killed all the black people in the church is a fair example imo. He was crazy pure and simple. Everybody knows how that was reported.

The black ex-reporter that killed his co workers out of rage or claims of racism. This guy was also crazy. These two events were reported in the media a completely different way.

These were both race based attacks but if you look at the way they were reported you wouldnt think so.

Until the mainstream media gets rid of the ridiculous agendas they are running things will stay the same.

 

[The80sDogCancer]

Quotas aren't the answer that's for sure. I'm not sure what is though, other than a more organized government with better policies aimed at grass roots levels. As I've previously mentioned you can't separate rugby from economics, politics or sociology in SA, so there is almost certainly no easy way to fix things.

its a problem your government needs to fix, they need to focus on reducing povety not on how many 'black guys' are on the field. the problem is clearly money. SA gov need to spend big big dollars on making education available to everyone.

seriously how can a nation let it get to the point where there are shantys cities around the outskirts? i seriously dont no how a country other than dirt poor third world could allow stanty towns to prop up.

the gov should view the millions of unskilled workers in the shantys as an asset and try use it productively. like set up massive infrastructure projects and employ a workforce from these poor communities, they would be cheap labor, and the government could organise the workforce into camps/locations and build schools etc inside them, so that way the government can encourage families to move in, the camps would be purpose built and a massive proportion of the poor would be better off. also South africa would have new infrastructure.

Australia did something like that during the 1950s and 60s. there was a wave of migrants from europe after ww2 and when they first arrived the aussie government would send them to work in unskilled positions for afew years to 'pay their debt'. then the government decided to build a massive hydro power system in the mountains and highered many of the new immigrants to the job. i dont understand why the australian government today doesnt think of something similar, we need a high speed rail network, having a massive and cheap labor force would be perfect.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Just to give you guys an update. The case to prevent the Springboks from going to the World Cup has been dropped:

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Race-case-against-Springboks-dropped-20150902

Judge Ntendeya Mavundla said: "It cannot be that, 21 years down the line, transformation is at a snail's pace in all sectors,"

He committed the court to investigating the matter further, declaring it to be an issue of "national interest" for South Africa.

"The only issue outstanding is they want a judicial inquiry to be appointed," said Riaan Grundlingh, counsel for SARU.

 

[The80sDogCancer]

commonsense prevailed (and i say that very loosely)

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

There is no sense in this country. I'm off as soon as a opportunity presents itself. I can accpet the state of affairs for myself but I have a family to look after.

 

[j'nuh]

Why have a quota at all? I know what it's trying to achieve, but it fails miserably.

Equal opportunity, yes. THAT's fighting racism by providing an opportunity that everybody has access to, and personally I've given my ideas on how that could be made to happen. Equal outcomes? No.

A quota also ignores that some sports are more popular among certain cultures. It's like saying that 15% of the All Blacks should be Indians because Auckland has such an overwhelming large Indian population. If it's not popular, it's not popular. I hate the idea of shoving numbers at the problem. Affect change? Totally with you on that. But totally against the idea of the end goal being "well, 30 percent of Springboks are black .. job well done." That should not be the point. It's bureaucratic crap.

People seem to believe equality is only about breaking down political barriers for disempowered groups. In reality, there are also cultural and economic barriers too.

In South Africa, the most cost-effective way of developing players is to tap into pre-existing cultural groups who already play the sport, predominantly targeting white people. Without an external pressure to change this, this is where SARU will concentrate their resources.

Consider the Rwandan government. Before 1994, no more than 10-15% of Parliament made up of females. They put a quota of at least 30% of Parliament to be made up of females by having certain seats only contested by women. However, the number of women winning elections in seats contested by both men and women has been going up over the years. In the latest election, in the seats contested by men and women, women won about half the seats. To go from 10-15% to 50% within 20 years is absolutely incredible. Between the 30% of women-only seats and the 34% won in male-female contested seats, 64% of Parliament is made up of females. The quota has clearly been quite successful in empowered female politics in Rwanda. Whilst the minutiae aren't directly comparable, I think it's clear that quotas can work, and the claim that "group X is not interested in it" is wide of the mark.

But the thing is, quotas have to be realistic and achievable to be successful. Which is why this is ridiculous. 30% by 2030 doesn't seem too unreasonable and gives SARU enough time to get things in order.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Here is open letter from SARU:

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/WorldCup/Open-letter-from-SARU-to-SA-20150909

The idea of an "exclusive", "white-dominated" game is frankly laughable. What we are is a successful, high performance sport in a competitive global environment; we are a responsible South African corporate citizen and we are a business. We fully realise that to stay relevant and vibrant in our country we need to evolve.

So, no one needs to lecture us about the importance of transformation – we got there long ago.

So in the week that we were first lambasted for being an elite, white sport we opened our 32nd mobile gym for black schools and clubs in Pacaltsdorp; we inaugurated our fifth 'Boks for Books' library in an under-privileged school in Stellenbosch and we were named sports federation of the year in awards for women's sport. Did that rate a mention? Was any of that weighed in the scales of criticism of 'evil' SARU?

All anyone was interested in was the fact that there were eight black players in a squad of 31 when 84% of the under-18 population is black African. It makes no sense does it?

Well here's some more statistics for you. In our most populace province of KZN, 97% of schoolboys NEVER play rugby. And the proportion is the same in Limpopo, North West and Mpumalanga – four of our biggest provinces where only 3% of boys have access to rugby at school.

It's hardly any better in Gauteng, Free State, the Northern Cape and even the Eastern Cape where around 85% of boys NEVER have access to rugby at school. And if you don't start at school you will never become a Springbok.

Only in the Western Cape – where 46% of schools play rugby - can the game really be called a 'national sport'.

Only about 10% of schoolboys ever see a rugby ball at primary school and by the time we get to high school that rugby playing population has dwindled to a fraction at the 1st XV level. It is from that tiny subset of potential players that Springboks emerge.

I just want to applaud SARU in their manner in which they conducted themselves on this matter. I have a feeling the ignorant will not even bother reading this letter, as the will start with their verbal assaults again. But nonetheless, it' real nice to see that SARU will fight for the truth.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Here is open letter from SARU:

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/WorldCup/Open-letter-from-SARU-to-SA-20150909





I just want to applaud SARU in their manner in which they conducted themselves on this matter. I have a feeling the ignorant will not even bother reading this letter, as the will start with their verbal assaults again. But nonetheless, it' real nice to see that SARU will fight for the truth.

Sadly those politically minded don't tend to hear reason.

 

[smartcooky]

Love this quote...

"The transformation train has left the station and it is the critics that have been left on the platform."

Says it all really!