SA Rugby wants 2 more Professional Franchises

[saulan]

Am I missing something? How can you go from saying 6 franchises was spreading the talent too thin and unprofitable, to saying 8 franchises is now the solution. In the space of 6 months! The SARU will have a whiplash from such u-turn.

This ->

In total, 142 players in the NH, or just over 6 match day squads.

I think it is still premature to be talking about an additional two teams, but if the Pro 14 reduces the churn of our players overseas, then we should have ample amount of talent available.

 

[AM_Bokke]

I was not trying to be negative when I said that the Leinster side was weaker than the Crusaders side that visited the Cheetahs in last year's Super Rugby (I have a lot of respect for Irish rugby) but I do think that it's a pretty non-debatable fact. That Crusaders side had Read, Crotty, Moody, Franks, Whitelock and many more. The lineups for the Cheetahs-Leinster game are not on the PRO 14 website so I can't double check but I only recognized one or two players. I am primarily a SH fan so it might be my ignorance but I really think that there is no way that one could say that the Crusader's team was not a better team. Now, there are two interesting things about this:

1) What does it say about the competition? The Alpha Bro mentioned that Leinster had a number of players not starting due to international duty. Super Rugby does not have this problem. It is the only comp going on at the time and the incentive of having home playoff games (and therefore not having to travel for them) is very strong. The best teams pretty much always play - or pay the price like the Lions did in 2016 going to Arg.

2) Who do fans want to see? I first saw this on Twitter from a ticket buyer perspective. The person was like, "why would I trade Super Rugby for Pro 14 if this is the difference in the top teams that I will see at my home ground?" I thought that made a lot of sense. If the top PRO 14 clubs bring weakened sides to S. Africa then I would think that the fans are getting an inferior product.

Just something to think about.

With regards to the money. I think that the lack of competition for sport entertainment dollars in the Celtic nations is actually a sign of market weakness, not opportunity. If there was money to be made by fielding competitive sides then someone would do so. Dublin might be a great rugby market yes, but only one PRO 14 team is located in Dublin. The best sides in all sports are in the biggest markets: London, Manchester, Madrid, New York, Munich, Los Angeles, etc. Broadcasters like big markets too.

I am one that is not sure if the PRO 14 experiment in financially sustainable and if SA really has the players for 6 (or 8) teams playing at the SR and Euro club level. I could be wrong. And if PRO 14 gets two more SA teams and replaces the Currie Cup as the development tier for rugby in SA that will be incredible for SA rugby.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I was not trying to be negative when I said that the Leinster side was weaker than the Crusaders side that visited the Cheetahs in last year's Super Rugby (I have a lot of respect for Irish rugby) but I do think that it's a pretty non-debatable fact. That Crusaders side had Read, Crotty, Moody, Franks, Whitelock and many more. The lineups for the Cheetahs-Leinster game are not on the PRO 14 website so I can't double check but I only recognized one or two players. I am primarily a SH fan so it might be my ignorance but I really think that there is no way that one could say that the Crusader's team was not a better team. Now, there are two interesting things about this:

1) What does it say about the competition? The Alpha Bro mentioned that Leinster had a number of players not starting due to international duty. Super Rugby does not have this problem. It is the only comp going on at the time and the incentive of having home playoff games (and therefore not having to travel for them) is very strong. The best teams pretty much always play - or pay the price like the Lions did in 2016 going to Arg.

2) Who do fans want to see? I first saw this on Twitter from a ticket buyer perspective. The person was like, "why would I trade Super Rugby for Pro 14 if this is the difference in the top teams that I will see at my home ground?" I thought that made a lot of sense. If the top PRO 14 clubs bring weakened sides to S. Africa then I would think that the fans are getting an inferior product.

Just something to think about.

With regards to the money. I think that the lack of competition for sport entertainment dollars in the Celtic nations is actually a sign of market weakness, not opportunity. If there was money to be made by fielding competitive sides then someone would do so. Dublin might be a great rugby market yes, but only one PRO 14 team is located in Dublin. The best sides in all sports are in the biggest markets: London, Manchester, Madrid, New York, Munich, Los Angeles, etc. Broadcasters like big markets too.

I am one that is not sure if the PRO 14 experiment in financially sustainable and if SA really has the players for 6 (or 8) teams playing at the SR and Euro club level. I could be wrong. And if PRO 14 gets two more SA teams and replaces the Currie Cup as the development tier for rugby in SA that will be incredible for SA rugby.

The players who weren't available were either Lions who are being stood down for recovery (Sexton, J McGrath Furlong, Henshaw, O'Brien), Injured (Leavy and L McGrath from Port Elizabeth and McFadden, Heaslip, Ringrose, Strauss and R Kearney) or their wives were expecting (Toner and Fardy) so there were unusual circumstances and and a long injury list at play and 11 internationals, albeit not widely known names, still started. So while not as good as the Crusaders by any means it still was a quality side on paper, the performance was not so great.

Again I think you're comparing the wrong competitions. The Pro 14 is more of an equivalent to the Currie Cup or Mitre 10, SARU's goal is almost certainly to get these sides eligible for the European Champions cup which is a competition that would rivals super rugby, in my opinion it has a far more exciting format too with very few dead rubbers. If you can get into Europe it'll likely be more profitable than super rugby before long.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

It's a real quandary for the Pro12 sides that they rotate their top talent in and out each week, leaving fans unclear of the likely quality of their 23 until it is announced. It is a major downside in my opinion and I'll not be surprised if it leaves SA fans scratching their heads. I can't think of a single other sport where this happens. Not even physical sports like American Football.

There is 21-24 games in the Pro14 for each team, plus a minimum of 6 in Europe (so 27-30 each year). Far more than for a Super Rugby player, even if they then play in the Currie Cup and even the Top League I think.

I'm hoping the SARU can convince the Pro14 that less is more. Reduce the fixture congestion and ensure maximum quality in each match, but I don't see that happening as fans and unions will be set in their ways. Unfortunately the "global season" still leaves the EOYT and 6N smack bang in the middle of the European seasons, making it near impossible to find a window to squeeze in say a 16 game Pro14.

In my opinion a Leinster 23 would be the equivalent of the Blues (Auckland), Stormers or even Lions when at full strength (assuming the same quality of coaching).

My hope is that because the Cheetahs and Kings looked so weak before Leinster left for the SH they were complacent (on and off the field) and went with less strength than was required.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

It's a real quandary for the Pro12 sides that they rotate their top talent in and out each week, leaving fans unclear of the likely quality of their 23 until it is announced. It is a major downside in my opinion and I'll not be surprised if it leaves SA fans scratching their heads. I can't think of a single other sport where this happens. Not even physical sports like American Football.

There is 21-24 games in the Pro14 for each team, plus a minimum of 6 in Europe (so 27-30 each year). Far more than for a Super Rugby player, even if they then play in the Currie Cup and even the Top League I think.

I'm hoping the SARU can convince the Pro14 that less is more. Reduce the fixture congestion and ensure maximum quality in each match, but I don't see that happening as fans and unions will be set in their ways. Unfortunately the "global season" still leaves the EOYT and 6N smack bang in the middle of the European seasons, making it near impossible to find a window to squeeze in say a 16 game Pro14.

In my opinion a Leinster 23 would be the equivalent of the Blues (Auckland), Stormers or even Lions when at full strength (assuming the same quality of coaching).

My hope is that because the Cheetahs and Kings looked so weak before Leinster left for the SH they were complacent (on and off the field) and went with less strength than was required.

Lanc said today that they'd have wanted the Lions and expecting father's but it obviously wasn't an option due to the IRFU and the obvious!

 

[mdaclarke]

I think it will be really good if the Pumas and Griquas/Leopards could join the Pro 14 to make it a pro 16. Then in each conference you'd have 2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 2 South African and an Italian and a Scottish team.

 

[User1245]

If the rumours are true that the Lions and Sharks expressed interest in the Pro12/14 then there's surely a big money draw. Dunno for sure though.

Our players are leaving at younger ages so something in the SANZAAR relationship is not working for us. The players seem to hold their cards close to their chests citing reasons like "to experience something different". The other tier 1 countries don't seem to have the same intrepid youngsters though...

Probably also a combination of the state of SA, quotas and SARU mismanagement.
SARU has no control over the first point, weak leadership to challenge the second point, and the suits are too busy looking after the own interests to change the last point.

SR has been a weak product for SA rugby purists since the inclusion of Japan and Argentina. The logistics of a yearly competition in 4 different continents is just crazy.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

My support for this is predicated on an assumption that

1) We do in fact actively start chasing lost sheep and do our utmost to keep a hold on those players our systems develop during their peak years.
2) The selection of the teams aren't based on our real politics or the "rugby politics" of the 14 unions but rather on which centers would be best placed to take advantage of the opportunity given. The Pumas to my mind are an obvious choice but I myself bulk at Kimberley and the Griquas. Even if the money was there to match salaries elsewhere would in-demand players really want to be based in Kimberley? The actual location is also a push factor that has held back the Cheetahs IMO to a small degree but Bloem is just a vastly superior place to Kimberley. This may be my Cape bias but I feel the Cape has more than the capacity ITO players, fans and facilities to take the other spot the furthest whether it be SWD Eagles based in George (a rugby market that is untapped after the SA leg of the 7s series moved to PE), Boland or even a team based just outside Cape Town like the Stellenbosch/SSW/Strand area or Northern suburbs. Cape Tow stadium is an absolute beaut just sitting there and the City of Cape Town will bend over backwards to accommodate a serious tenant. Lets face it, the Cape produces the talent our other teams use in any case.

 

[TRF_heineken]

My support for this is predicated on an assumption that

1) We do in fact actively start chasing lost sheep and do our utmost to keep a hold on those players our systems develop during their peak years.
2) The selection of the teams aren't based on our real politics or the "rugby politics" of the 14 unions but rather on which centers would be best placed to take advantage of the opportunity given. The Pumas to my mind are an obvious choice but I myself bulk at Kimberley and the Griquas. Even if the money was there to match salaries elsewhere would in-demand players really want to be based in Kimberley? The actual location is also a push factor that has held back the Cheetahs IMO to a small degree but Bloem is just a vastly superior place to Kimberley. This may be my Cape bias but I feel the Cape has more than the capacity ITO players, fans and facilities to take the other spot the furthest whether it be SWD Eagles based in George (a rugby market that is untapped after the SA leg of the 7s series moved to PE), Boland or even a team based just outside Cape Town like the Stellenbosch/SSW/Strand area or Northern suburbs. Cape Tow stadium is an absolute beaut just sitting there and the City of Cape Town will bend over backwards to accommodate a serious tenant. Lets face it, the Cape produces the talent our other teams use in any case.

I Agree. But I think we should look at the regions which aren't being represented properly right now. And therefore I'd like it to be the Pumas, representing Mpumalanga, and the Leopards, representing North-West and maybe incorporate the Griffons along with them.

I also think that the Griquas shouldn't be an option. Kimberley's stadium also hasn't been a stadium that has been upgraded in a very long while.

 

[WaterboySA]

Hein I have to disagree. We all saw what happens when you create a team based on those terms...remember the Kings? IF it ever happens and I hope it doesn't, then it should be based purely on numbers in Curriecup supporters.....it should make sense financially or they should just forget about it.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Hein I have to disagree. We all saw what happens when you create a team based on those terms...remember the Kings? IF it ever happens and I hope it doesn't, then it should be based purely on numbers in Curriecup supporters.....it should make sense financially or they should just forget about it.

Remember that we are talking about franchising here, not about rugby unions. The chance is there that these new franchises will be some sort of amalgamation between certain unions and private investors joining forces.

I think the possibility that a team like the Pumas, will join up with the Valke, but use the Pumas' base in Nelspruit as their homeground.

When it comes to financial obligations, I think, the Leopards make a lot of sense. especially with the amount of students in Potchefstroom. Look at the Highlanders as an example, they get their stadium filled nearly every game, and have a stand purely for the students. That can easily happen in Potch too. it's also not that far from Joburg and Pretoria, or even Bloemfontein

 

[User1245]

Lets face it, the Cape produces the talent our other teams use in any case.

I strongly disagree tried to sneak that one in

 

[unrated]

Remember that we are talking about franchising here, not about rugby unions. The chance is there that these new franchises will be some sort of amalgamation between certain unions and private investors joining forces.

I think the possibility that a team like the Pumas, will join up with the Valke, but use the Pumas' base in Nelspruit as their homeground.

When it comes to financial obligations, I think, the Leopards make a lot of sense. especially with the amount of students in Potchefstroom. Look at the Highlanders as an example, they get their stadium filled nearly every game, and have a stand purely for the students. That can easily happen in Potch too. it's also not that far from Joburg and Pretoria, or even Bloemfontein

Potch students do love their rugby.
The varsity cup games between the Pukke and any other team are usually filled to the rafters with people waiting hours before the game in the sun just to get a spot in the stadium.
But they have no affinity towards the leopards. And any attempt at a franchise that incorporated the students will need to be attractive to the students in a way that the leopards are not . Most potch students come from various parts of the countries so a team representing the region might not entice anyone. But as you m mentioned the team will have world class facilities with a high performance Centre that is used by many international athletes (such as the Spanish national Football team)

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I don't see the point. Let's see how the current SA teams in Europe do. Even then can they dilute their talent further across more teams?

 

[TRF_heineken]

I don't see the point. Let's see how the current SA teams in Europe do. Even then can they dilute their talent further across more teams?

The point is to try and make it more attractive for our players, that are playing in the NH for NH-based teams, to return to our shores and play for local teams in NH-based tournaments.

The plan is not to dilute our pool further, it's to strengthen our already diluted pool by getting the best players back to SA and also making them available to play for the Springboks.

We can currently, field a springbok team by only using players in the NH. and that team will smash our current springbok team.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

It'd take someone with a better grasp of Rugby finances and exchange rates than me to work out if the Pro14 will help the Kings and Cheetahs stall the migration of talent to the other Pro14 sides (mainly Ireland). But sadly I don't think you need to be an economist to conclude it won't help all that much with losing talent to England, France (and possibly Japan).

I just don't see enough players being won back from the Pro12 sides to bolster the roster of two new teams. I'd be delighted to be wrong and it is interesting to hear that there are some significant population centres in SA that don't have a professional team.

 

[saulan]

I just don't see enough players being won back from the Pro12 sides to bolster the roster of two new teams. I'd be delighted to be wrong and it is interesting to hear that there are some significant population centres in SA that don't have a professional team.

I don't think it's particularly about winning them back, I think it's more about retaining the next generation of our young talent and retaining them in South Africa for a longer time period. Also, it's also better now from an SA perspective if a player plays for a different Pro 14 team not in SA since it's easier to keep track of how they are doing form wise. It's also yet to be seen whether they would treat those players at other pro 14 teams as players of a domestic league, although I think it's highly unlikely.

Also in the past Japan hasn't been the largest issue, in some ways it's been a supplementary income for our players who returned at the start of Super Rugby, but some did stay full time.

 

[higgik]

Best case scenario if new franchises are formed and join the Anglo-Welsh Cup is the teams will play 6 games in a competition that nobody really cares about. I can't see anybody investing in that.

SA could sustain 4 franchises in European competitions. First they have to get the Kings and Cheetahs up to a high enough standard. If that happens and they repatriate a lot of SA players from European clubs to their own franchises (eg Ulster lose 3/4 of their team to the Kings or Cheetahs) then new franchises would be welcome in the Pro14 expanded to Pro16. A 4 team SA conference, 4 team Irish conference, 4 team Welsh conference and 4 team Scottish/Italian conference makes a lot of sense. More sense than adding North American teams anyway.

Agree with this plan completely.
Teams play home and away in conference (6 matches)
Then home or away against the other teams (12 matches)
Still only 2 matches in SA, keeps derbies going and reduces fixture list meaning internationals can play more often and smaller squads, (more SA players could move back home).
Finals series would be conference winners and best 2 non winner overall.
4 rounds of play offs over 5 weeks, with final like current a 'neutral venue'.

 

[smartcooky]

Any person willing to commit millions to a business which you know you will never be allowed to run as you please(come in rules enforced by ANC), would be an idiot. We don't need any more teams, we need freedom for the existing teams.

100% agree with this.

So long as The ANC SRSA dictate the composition of rugby teams in South Africa, no-one who has the money and more than two brain-cells between his ears is going to touch this, not even with a 10ft bargepole with Thulas Nxesi holding onto the other end.