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Sam Burgess...What do we think?

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As a person who is predominantly a league fan, but plays union (due to lack of league teams near where I live), definitely I think Burgess can succeed in union. Without a doubt. And he will be a superstar of Dan Carter and Johnny Wilkinson proportions.
Will he be able to reach that level in time for the world cup? It's going to be extremely difficult. But if anyone can do it, Burgess can. (watch the slammin Sam documentary On YouTube and you'll get an idea if his mental character and attitude). I'd be very surprised if he isn't already reading up on the game and maybe even going down to his local pro-union team to train.

The question is, what is his best position? In league he is the majority of the time a prop. However he is equally adept at playing 2nd row, which in attack at least is usually only one in from the centres. And loose forward, who is usually regarded as the most skillfull of the forward pack and can play stand-Off (although this is something Burgess couldn't do). So his handling is far from a weakness. It's a long way Off the standard required of an international centre though. Also I don't think I've ever seen him kick a ball. So for me centre is out if the question.

For me his best when he's running through the middle of the pitch isolating players. So forward seems like the most logical option. I think tight 5 is beyond him, you play a whole career and still not perfect them positions. And hes already halfway through his. So that leaves back row. Which I think is perfect for him. I'd play him number 8. Stuart Lancaster likes to change his number 8 in the 2nd half. So I feel he could do a job in tandem with Billy vunipola. Which ever one starts, the other is going to make a big impact off the bench against tiring legs.
 
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I think he will and should play 12. I originally thought 6/8 but if u look at the best players in those positions i.e read, Picamoles, Parisse u have to be very well rounded. I think 6 is out of the question for the first 3 years. In regards to 8 the best are good in the tight and knowledgeable of their surroundings as well as being explosive carriers not to mention breakdown work, lineouts etc......

Inside centre though in this day and age is actually very limited. You can go on all u like about the preferred choice of having a ball player but space is so limited at international level that it's much more effective to pick someone who can carry and defend. Look at the top 12's since 2007 after the new offside rules from the scrums (yes i know it was 09 but teams started to evolve from 07), the intensity and tighter defenses it is massively different. You don't need a 2nd receiver u basically need someone who can read the game whether that's in the closer channels (a 2nd 5 8) or wider (Smith) alongside someone who can run strong hard lines

Rant over...
 
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welshglory said:
I think he will and should play 12. I originally thought 6/8 but if u look at the best players in those positions i.e read, Picamoles, Parisse u have to be very well rounded. I think 6 is out of the question for the first 3 years. In regards to 8 the best are good in the tight and knowledgeable of their surroundings as well as being explosive carriers not to mention breakdown work, lineouts etc......

Inside centre though in this day and age is actually very limited. You can go on all u like about the preferred choice of having a ball player but space is so limited at international level that it's much more effective to pick someone who can carry and defend. Look at the top 12's since 2007 after the new offside rules from the scrums (yes i know it was 09 but teams started to evolve from 07), the intensity and tighter defenses it is massively different. You don't need a 2nd receiver u basically need someone who can read the game whether that's in the closer channels (a 2nd 5 8) or wider (Smith) alongside someone who can run strong hard lines

Rant over...
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Really really disagree with this, the worlds top inside centres are all well rounded 12's who can carry, distribute and kick - Nonu worked on his all round game, look at JDV for the boks.

The best midfields are balanced where 10, 12 & 13 can all carry, can all distribute and can all kick.

Long gone are the days of one smasher and one ball player, as we saw with Wales complete inefficency at breaking down defences this year.
 
You make a good point. I think however, nobody knows his best position until he actually picks up a Gilbert in anger. We can all speculate but other than the basic skills the games or very different in terms of gameplay, tactics and even physical condition. Throw in the union set piece and anything could happen. He isn't like a back who's skills are much more obviously transferable.

This is the reason I have my doubts of him getting to the WC. By the time he finds his position, builds the skills to play that position and then break into the bath team (which is difficult in itself, centre or backrow) your probably looking New year 2015 at the earliest.
 
kenny_bee180 said:
You make a good point. I think however, nobody knows his best position until he actually picks up a Gilbert in anger. We can all speculate but other than the basic skills the games or very different in terms of gameplay, tactics and even physical condition. Throw in the union set piece and anything could happen. He isn't like a back who's skills are much more obviously transferable.

This is the reason I have my doubts of him getting to the WC. By the time he finds his position, builds the skills to play that position and then break into the bath team (which is difficult in itself, centre or backrow) your probably looking New year 2015 at the earliest.
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agreed.
 
Completely agreed - and this is the route Mike Ford is going - he sees him as a back rower and has explicitly stated he will play his first game at 12.
Bath are going to play it by ear - and try to get the most out of his strength rather than try and pigeonhole him.
 
I don't think his undoubted talent an issue. He WILL make it. And I have no doubt about that. He is at best place to help his aswell. Mike Ford is better placed than most to help with his transition. And hes got Kyle eastmond, and to a certain extent, George Ford that have made the transition. Albeit in a potentially different position in his team. And no doubt Andy Farrel Will be there to help.
The 2015 WC may come a little to early. But he will only be 30/31 in 2019.
 
Not sure how I feel about that... it means his success hangs entirely on the area of play hardest to get to grips with for League converts - the breakdown.
you can have the most incredible skills with the ball in hand, but you still won't be picked as a blindside if you're not an expert at winning turnover at the breakdown etc.
So I think it's a bit of a risk to be honest.
 
HenryChinaski said:
Not sure how I feel about that... it means his success hangs entirely on the area of play hardest to get to grips with for League converts - the breakdown.
you can have the most incredible skills with the ball in hand, but you still won't be picked as a blindside if you're not an expert at winning turnover at the breakdown etc.
So I think it's a bit of a risk to be honest.
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“We’re going to have a look at what he can do at the ruck first,” Ford explains. “We’re not going to put any pressure on him whether he’s going to play in the centre or back row.
“He’ll probably play his first game at 12 because that’s the easiest to start off in. But after that we’ll decide where he’s best suited for Bath Rugby.”
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You're in agreement then.
 
I think he would be a better 8 than 6. Let him have ball in hand and just run and smash people, the England system for flankers means he would have to be trying to get over the ball and jackal but can you really see a guy like Burgess being able to pick when to leave the ruck and when to go for the ball. I hope it does go well and he has an amazing transition because he really adds something to our pack. If we had him and Billy in the same back row then even South Africa and Alberts would have to concede power to us. 6.Burgess 8.Vunipola 7.Kvesic :D
 
HenryChinaski said:
Not sure how I feel about that... it means his success hangs entirely on the area of play hardest to get to grips with for League converts - the breakdown.
you can have the most incredible skills with the ball in hand, but you still won't be picked as a blindside if you're not an expert at winning turnover at the breakdown etc.
So I think it's a bit of a risk to be honest.
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On the other hand he will only ever have been coached by an elite coach and won't come with a lifetime of bad habist (as has been frequently said about eastmond these guys invariably turn out to be the best technically skilled at the breakdown).

Decision making is another matter though.
 
I think if England are playing him in the Alberts role than we probably need a fetcher to play alongside him because Burgess and Billy aren't really the get over the ball types so a Fraser/Kvesic openside is what we need to play but I won't complain when burgess and vunipola leave the field with Morgan coming on and the pitch looks like Stalingrad. Also is there any chance Dickinson or Ewers can be trained to be a 7 ? 6.Burgess 7.Ewers 8.Vunipola
 
ratsapprentice said:
At Bath he'd have Louw too!

I'm speaking primarily as a Bath fan btw.
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Suddenly I am jealous but as a Province fan I can't complain about loose forwards with 3 Bokke and 1 good jackal in 6,Fourie 7,Burger 8,Vermeulen 19,Kolisi in the backrow. Still, I'd wish Louw would come back to WP and bring Mujati and Brits along with him...

1 Steenkamp (born and raised here even if he didn't play for our senior side)
2 Brits
3 Mujati
4 Etzebeth
5 Bekker
6 Louw
7 Burger
8 Vermeulen

would make for a decent club pack.

But I am off topic, sorry! If Sam goes well, do you think his brothers would possibly follow? I don't know how big League is in England but I'd imagine Union has a bigger 'profile' attached to it?
 
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His older brother is a bit too old and not quite as good, but his younger twins definitely could.

Wouldn't be for a couple of years though - if at all.
 

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