Sam Burgess...What do we think?

[ruggabee]

What do you mean by an exceptional case?

Very few league converts have even tried to become a forward in Union because League is essentially 13 Union backs.
The assumption that league players can't make it as union forwards is just that - an assumption.

Or maybe they don't attempt to make it as union forwards because they know how difficult it is. That's what I mean by exceptional case. Very few have had the ability. It's a bigger assumption on that evidence that a league player will make it as a forward ie. Burgess.

 

[goodNumber10]

Why?
Shoulder barges will have been gone for two(?) years by the time he arrives.

I haven't mentioned shoulder barges... i said he's gonna get done for not wrapping.

 

[goodNumber10]

I am pretty sure he has the mental capacity to understand he isn't playing league anymore.

24 years of conditioning is hard to shake off over night.... he'll make a few mistakes in regards to the rules the exact same way people like Folau and Robinson did etc... doesn't mean he won't be awesome.

 

[TheSaffycen]

It's one of those positions you need to grow up playing until the whole understanding of the breakdown like timing, technique, when to support runners etc becomes an instinct

Hopefully with a league back round he will be great at support lines and receiving offloads when the player is about to be tackled. He isn't creative but I don't think he will need to be, if you get him one on one with somebody and have someone on his shoulder so he can attempt an offload he will be crazy effective. He may not be a great offloader in league but in union I bet he is better than a hell of a lot of other players. We will have to see but even if he is one dimensional a player of his size is going to still be a threat to anybody.

 

[ruggabee]

Hopefully with a league back round he will be great at support lines and receiving offloads when the player is about to be tackled. He isn't creative but I don't think he will need to be, if you get him one on one with somebody and have someone on his shoulder so he can attempt an offload he will be crazy effective. He may not be a great offloader in league but in union I bet he is better than a hell of a lot of other players. We will have to see but even if he is one dimensional a player of his size is going to still be a threat to anybody.

I agree he's going to be a handful with ball in hand that's for certain. It's the crucial union elements apart from running and tackling guys that is still a mystery. We'll have to wait and see.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I haven't mentioned shoulder barges... i said he's gonna get done for not wrapping.

...which is the same thing? Hitting without wrapping = shoulder charge, for all intents and purposes.
In rugby league you have to tackle, not collide - you have to wrap the player, or at least make an attempt, just like in Union.

 

[goodNumber10]

...which is the same thing? Hitting without wrapping = shoulder charge, for all intents and purposes.
In rugby league you have to tackle, not collide - you have to wrap the player, or at least make an attempt, just like in Union.

Is it? You can't body check/shoulder charge, but you don't have to bring your arms around in league.... just checking the NRL laws from 2013 it says a shoulder charge is:

Shoulder Charge
Is where a defender, without attempting to tackle, grab or hold the ball-carrier (or any opposing player)
using the arms or hands, makes direct physical contact using the shoulder or the upper arm (tucked
into the side).

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Just going off of what I've been told by referees, when the law change came in.

 

[goodNumber10]

Just going off of what I've been told by referees, when the law change came in.

you'd know better than me mate.. i'm literally just going on some of the tackles i see that i think would get blown in union.

 

[kenny_bee180]

Can I just make a point.

Since union went pro in 1995 even fewer union forwards have made an impact in league.
I appreciate the number switching is quite low though.
One of the most recent was Andy Powell. And if you were to pick a union forward to succeed in league he would be on the list. He ended up getting shipped out On loan and described the game as "like being hit by a tram"

 

[goodNumber10]

Can I just make a point.

Since union went pro in 1995 even fewer union forwards have made an impact in league.
I appreciate the number switching is quite low though.
One of the most recent was Andy Powell. And if you were to pick a union forward to succeed in league he would be on the list. He ended up getting shipped out On loan and described the game as "like being hit by a tram"

I'm not sure of the relevence fo your point mate. Are you saying ti's harder to go from union to league?

I think forwards in union have a completely untransferrable skill set (on the whole)

 

[TheSaffycen]

Now I don't completely understand League, as in i'm not sure what to expect form certain players for example in Union A fly-half is expected to have great distribution, Kicking and all that jazz, but is there a chance Greg Inglis is coming to union ? I have seen some clips of this guy and he has pace, power and a great offloading game. He looks to have all the attributes for a 12, 13, 15

 

[kenny_bee180]

I'm not sure of the relevence fo your point mate. Are you saying ti's harder to go from union to league?

I think forwards in union have a completely untransferrable skill set (on the whole)

In some respects it is harder, yeah. Especially for a forward. Union forwards basic skills, on the whole, are inferior to there league conterparts. Also the fitness is an issue.
Vs Warrington, 36 year old prop, Jamie peacock made 60!!!!! Tackles. I don't know any union forward that could do that.
Equally though, league forwards would struggle with technical aspects of union.
So it's all relative really.

 

[kenny_bee180]

Now I don't completely understand League, as in i'm not sure what to expect form certain players for example in Union A fly-half is expected to have great distribution, Kicking and all that jazz, but is there a chance Greg Inglis is coming to union ? I have seen some clips of this guy and he has pace, power and a great offloading game. He looks to have all the attributes for a 12, 13, 15

I've heard these rumours too. He plays predominantly as a full back. But is equally adept at centre. (a league centre is probably most comparable to a union outside centre)
If he were to switch codes I'd imagine he'd play FB. I wouldn't wanna be the guy that has to pick between him and folau!!!

 

[ratsapprentice]

Comparing league vs union tackle stats is pointless.

How many rucks did Peacock hit in that game?
... how many driving mauls and scrums was he involved in?

Aerobic endurance and, to a certain extent, power are more important for any league player than they are for a Union forward.
Union forwards have a far higher strength requirement - so there will necessarily be a tradeoff with their fitness.

It's not like Thorn came into Union and started to make 20+ tackles every game - in fact he was about average for a good lock.

 

[kenny_bee180]

Comparing league vs union tackle stats is pointless.

How many rucks did Peacock hit in that game?
... how many driving mauls and scrums was he involved in?

Aerobic endurance and, to a certain extent, power are more important for any league player than they are for a Union forward.
Union forwards have a far higher strength requirement - so there will necessarily be a tradeoff with their fitness.

It's not like Thorn came into Union and started to make 20+ tackles every game - in fact he was about average for a good lock.

I think you misunderstand my point. I was never saying one code is harder or my physical than the other. They both have there merits.
I never picked up a major injury whist playing league. But since I've been playing union I've separated my shoulder and ruptured my ACL ( I think that's more to do with my age and being in a much poorer state fitness wise).

My original point was to purely emphasise the that point that Burgess will be a success in the forwards.

 

[Tubularbandage]

Folks. I am a Leaguey. I come in peace....and to offer reassurance.

There is a lot of disrespect for League players on this forum, but I want to make a few points.

I have watched every game Sam has played for two years.
Sam Burgess is not an ordinary League player. He is not ordinary in any sense. He is a freak.

Don't worry about whether he can keep up with his opposite centre. He can . He will. He plays 80 mins and has 60 plays a game in league. With no breaks in play to reset scrums or set up lineouts. He is unbelievably quick agile and elusive for a man of his size. If there is an 18 1/2 stone bloke anywhere in the world fitter (cardio and conditioning) than him, I will nail a jelly to the ceiling.

He is also intelligent, tactically and strategically aware. But most importantly he is a leader. The most consistently brave and powerful sportsman I have ever seen. He forces his will on other world class players, they either change their game to try and combat him....leaving opportunities for his team-mates to exploit, or they try to dominate him....which always ends badly for them.

I am gutted. Don't think that if Sam is a success it makes your game look weaker. In this case that doesn't matter and isn't relevant. Rejoice, because whether it takes 2 games or 2 years to adapt.....he will be spectacular.

I don't say this lightly.....I believe the greatest athlete on the planet has decided to come and play with you. We are bereft.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

There is a lot of disrespect for League players on this forum, but I want to make a few points.

Really?!

 

[Tubularbandage]

There is a fair bit. There is a natural assumption in many posts that League players just aren't clever enough to grasp the complexities of Union.

I don't doubt there's plenty the other way too, though.

But if that's all you took from my post......I think you may be missing the point....shame.

 

[ratsapprentice]

League never really comes up in conversation here, unless it's from those of us who consider themselves fans of the code.
I don't think there are any code-warriors here, except for possibly SimonG - but he's just a bit of a ****, and most of the time he's criticising Union anyway.

He's a great player - if he can stay fit, and be patient enough in learning the fundamentals of forward play to master them then he's going to be one of the best around.

Union forward play just doesn't exist in League - it's nothing to do with intelligence.
Some league players will naturally have the ability and can develop the instincts required - some won't.

A Union forward like Geoff Parling would make an awful League player - because the things he's good at in Union are completely useless in league.
And someone like Paul Gallen might not have the ability to excel in the technical aspects of Union forward play (ruck, maul, set-piece) which would mean he'd never standout in Union.
It's not a better/worse criticism - there are skills in Union forward play that playing League simply does not develop.