Sam Burgess...What do we think?

[ratsapprentice]

Jason Robinson took about 3 months didn't he?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Similar time frame - first played for Sale end of November, capped for England in early February....then went on the Lions tour in June.

 

[j'nuh]

Jason Robinson took about 3 months didn't he?

Isn't it a bit more difficult to transition as a forward? I could be making it up, but I suspect there's more common ground in back play between league and union than in forward play. I would be surprised if Burgess got to even Premiership-level standard of rucking by the end of the season.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Yeah - not saying it's going to happen, it almost certainly wont, but there is precedent.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

How long did it take Thorn to change? I'll have to ask him about next time I see him and would also say lock is more specialist.

 

[donmcdazzle]

How long did it take Thorn to change? I'll have to ask him about next time I see him and would also say lock is more specialist.

In his first stint in union he played 6 and 8 before moving to lock I think.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Yeah - he went straight into the back row.

 

[Tubularbandage]

Sam isn't going to play in the forwards this year. Don't focus on whether he can transition as a world class union forward in three months. He can't. As one of his biggest fans even I acknowledge the nuances, techniques, specific muscles and instinct to operate as a union forward will take time to develop.

But he can be the most destructive centre in world rugby, and quickly. That's where he'll play this year. Then I suspect they'll transition him to back row. He is pretty lean at 18st 5 lb. Could easily operate a stone heavier without affecting mobility too much and he loves contact. Tacticslly astute He's a number 8 all over for me. But he can't be Parisse overnight. So maybe have him in the squad as back up centre for the last 2 or 3 6 nations matches if he's started well for Bath and blood him for 20 mins. Then ramp up in some prep matches so he'll be ready to go at inside centre for RWC.

I agree that if he was able to command a place in England's pack by the 6 nations that would be an absolute miracle of adaptation.

 

[ruggabee]

I'm expecting him to produce moments of excitement in the midfield but that will be down to his natural ability. I have no doubt we'll see him make many mistakes that will come from being unfamiliar with the structure in Union. Once he gets used to where he should be and what he should be doing then I think he'll be one hell of a player. Even SBW was rusty in his first game back with Counties. He seemed a bit lost at times and was playing solely on instinct. I'm positive that if SBW can make the transition then Burgess can too. Just give him time.

 

[Peat]

Similar time frame - first played for Sale end of November, capped for England in early February....then went on the Lions tour in June.

Robinson was in his second stint in union though - he'd had a season with Bath shortly after the game went pro before coming over for good later. Or so wiki informs me...

It would be freakish if he did it even as a centre. I know he's an incredible physical specimen, but can he run a union centre's lines? I don't know how similar they are to his current lines. How quickly can he adapt to having to fight to stay on his feet when people are trying to take him around the ankles or he gets isolated? Or not going too upright, because if he does he might get turned over? How quickly is he going to get used to starting to fight to get the ball safely back the moment he realises he's going to go to deck? These are tiny instinctive things that a lot of union players don't even think about but which aren't necessarily going to come naturally to Sam. Get them wrong and his impact as a ball carrier is going to be severely affected. He'll still provide moments of magic, but it won't be consistent until he gets the little stuff. Making a match day squad by the end of the competition might be possible.

It would be even more impressive to do so as a forward, but not as much more difficult as some think imo. The centres have a real big workload in terms of rucking as is.

Still, all doable. The thing that makes me most optimistic is that Lancaster and Ford seem more impressed by him as a person than as an athlete. There's been some freakish athletes who've failed to take to union - his commitment and intelligence are the biggest guarantees of it going right.

 

[Jack Reacher]

Not sure if it has already been mentioned as this thread is VERY long but Benji Marshall couldn't get used to union and he is a pretty technical player. I think Burgess will get thrust straight in a bit like Brad Thorn but it all depends where they play him. NZ made a mistake playing Thorn as a no8 but found his niche at lock. If Burgess is started at 12,13 then it will be tough no matter how talented or smart he apparently is. SBW took a year, Ben Smith didn't make it at centre and Nonu took 3-4 years himself

 

[goodNumber10]

It would be freakish if he did it even as a centre. I know he's an incredible physical specimen, but can he run a union centre's lines? I don't know how similar they are to his current lines. How quickly can he adapt to having to fight to stay on his feet when people are trying to take him around the ankles or he gets isolated?

I don't think any of that will be a problem, it's all overs and unders, and he's at his best running those hard lines off a short ball...staying on his feet is quite natural as he's the guy who makes the hard yards in league and looks for the offload.

I just think he will be better suited to 6, carrying off 9 and defending at 1st & 2nd guard, and 1st outside he'll put some massive hits in.

I think we'll see him go straight into the pack despite what we've been hearing - i think it will be a mistake to try and "TEACH" him the game from the center. It's different to Eastmond debuting as a winger and then moving inwards, I think SB needs to be right int he mix from his first run on.

 

[Tubularbandage]

I know he's an incredible physical specimen, but can he run a union centre's lines? I don't know how similar they are to his current lines. How quickly can he adapt to having to fight to stay on his feet when people are trying to take him around the ankles or he gets isolated? Or not going too upright, because if he does he might get turned over?

Honestly he can do anything. Anything. To do it instinctively takes time, I admit.


Most League tackles are three four man tackles on big forwards, two high (wrapping) one low, and Sam is as tough a man to drop as there is in the game. He also ranks second among nrl forwards for off loads. So in the game that moves the ball more, he's one that moves it more than anyone else. On tackling - The YouTube highlights only show the big hits, not the 30 other tackles he makes every game, which are technically perfect.

 

[Mumbles119]

Nah I'm talkin household name status of which there are none.

The last Rugby player, since Sam, who single handedly managed to get their club featured in the front page of the BBC Sport section is Wilkinson in the Heinekin Cup final.

Hence, Sam is already the biggest name in English RU, without having played a game.

Were you aware that news sites such as the BBC tailor their feeds to the location accessed?

 

[nzlizard]

As a rugby fan I hope he adapts quickly and gets lots of game play, he is going to be exciting to watch if he develops as his talent should allow him too.

As for where he will play I have no idea, I know the thought of him playing at centre and smashing the midfield would be very mouth watering for a lot of English fans and very scary for opposition fans.

He has the potential to be a match winner for England at the WC based on his size, speed and offload ability, just needs to find that rugby technique to go with it.

 

[ratsapprentice]

It's funny you should mention Parrisse, TB - I think Sam should be given his highlight reel.

I see him as being a bigger, harder working version of Sergio even if he might lack that top, top level of finesse.
Can see him playing that role from 6 or 8.

 

[Peat]

GN10/Tubular - Maybe. As I said, it's not so much can he do it, it as how quickly he does it.

Not so long ago we got a League player at my club who was physically simply on another level to pretty much everyone there. My club do not play an outstandingly high level of rugby by any means. When he got to the 1s, he failed to make the impact expected, and a lot of that stuff was why.

I'll just leave it here as I'm looking forwards to seeing what happens. And that maybe he will go straight into the pack with Bath's injury list anyway.

 

[SimonG]

Were you aware that news sites such as the BBC tailor their feeds to the location accessed?

Given I'm in the north of Ireland...this well known hotbed of Rugby league... well that would make him making headline news with his NRL team that bit more impressive.

Tubularbandage I'd echo everything you've stated. To quote Russell Crowe, Burgess is a "franchise player" (i called him a game changer..a difference maker ala Zidane or Ronaldo). The points about adaptation from League to Union are valid, for 99% of players. Hes in that 1% where his talent is such that it will mask over any teething issues...yes he will make the odd mistake at the beginning but that will be massively outweighed by what he brings to the table. He's in the Jason Robinson bracket (and Robinson himself states he will make the transition just as quick).

There is absolutely no doubt he will play centre...which is where England could massively improve. The back row is already pretty solid and could only marginally improve. Burgess and Tuilagi...good luck to the opposition is all I can say.

 

[ratsapprentice]

There's no doubt he's a "franchise player" - I don't like the term, but I agree with the premise.
Your assertion that he's the most famous man in Union is utter ********, however.

And you're right - there is very little doubt he will play at centre - there is also no doubt that his coach has said that he will probably (read: almost certainly) be a back rower in due time.
And objectively - the only position where he will have a realistic chance of taking advantage of his phenomenal workrate is in the back row.

And just to give your comments about the front page of the BBC some context - today's front page features an article about the profusion of bicycles in Copenhagen.

 

[SimonG]

Comparing apples and oranges.

When (if ever) has an NRL game previously made the front page of the BBC Sports section? I'll make a educated guess...Never. And it was all about one man.

With the lifestyle that hes just given up, England are very very lucky indeed to have Sam Burgess.