Southern Kings Finished?

[mdaclarke]

The best arrangement is for the Pro14 to revert to Pro12, and South Africa to hold its own 8 team domestic competition perhaps including Argentina's Jaguares. The best four South African/Argentine teams then qualify for the European Rugby Champions Cup with the other four going into the Challenge Cup. In all honesty I think there is little interest in South Africa in playing Zebre, Dragons, Edinburgh, etc.

This would be really cool. But would need the European qualification

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

The best arrangement is for the Pro14 to revert to Pro12, and South Africa to hold its own 8 team domestic competition perhaps including Argentina's Jaguares. The best four South African/Argentine teams then qualify for the European Rugby Champions Cup with the other four going into the Challenge Cup. In all honesty I think there is little interest in South Africa in playing Zebre, Dragons, Edinburgh, etc.

I could get on board wit this! I'd love the Currie Cup to come to the fore again. I wouldn't even mid Argentina joining the fray but I think they would have to field 2 teams at least. It would just feel weird to have essentially the ARG national team facing our provinces.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I've been talking to my friends over the weekend, and one of them suggested something, I think, should actually be implemented if we do go the four team route up north.

His idea was the following:

Have four teams, keep their franchise names. But that's it.

Then select the 4 best stadiums with regards to attendance and other factors, and give each team a home base.

then take the top 8 players in every position available, and divide them up between the teams.

That way, all the teams will have a squad of 30 guys, all in Springbok pecking order (to some extent). And use this to our advantage to make the Springboks even better/stronger.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

This would be really cool. But would need the European qualification

I doubt we'll ever see South African sides in the champions cup - it would mean the nations voting to drop their own teams from it, which ain't gonna happen.
There's was never even a whisper of including the two that are(/were) in the Pro14, and they were involved for three seasons

 

[elavery]

The addition of four South African sides to the ERCC would make it the premier rugby competition in the world without doubt. Having 7 teams each from England and France is too much. Imagine 5 English, 5 French, 4 South African, 5 Pro12, + Current Champions. Four groups of five teams with top 8 going to playoffs. This is the sort of strength and format that would make every game must watch. Unfortunately the powers-that-be seemingly have no interest in delivering such a product. The Southern Hemisphere lost the plot entirely by relegating domestic comps to an afterthought and putting all the eggs into the Super Rugby basket. I long for the days of Auckland v Canterbury with both teams full of All Blacks. Now we get teams with non-geographical names and players imported from everywhere. The Northern Hemisphere im my opinion have kept a better balance between domestic and trans-national competitions.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I've been talking to my friends over the weekend, and one of them suggested something, I think, should actually be implemented if we do go the four team route up north.

His idea was the following:

Have four teams, keep their franchise names. But that's it.

Then select the 4 best stadiums with regards to attendance and other factors, and give each team a home base.

then take the top 8 players in every position available, and divide them up between the teams.

That way, all the teams will have a squad of 30 guys, all in Springbok pecking order (to some extent). And use this to our advantage to make the Springboks even better/stronger.

and i thought the franchises we a bit contrived as they were...this would be pretty full on

 

[TRF_heineken]

and i thought the franchises we a bit contrived as they were...this would be pretty full on

I get that. But in most cases the players will either remain at their current home team, or join the team where they played high school rugby.

It's just an idea to even things up between all the teams.

I think in most cases it would be the back-up players that might need to move.

But in saying that, I know that this will never materialise until we have centralised contracts. All the players are contracted to their local franchise/union. So that won't happen.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

and i thought the franchises we a bit contrived as they were...this would be pretty full on

Contrived? In what way? Its pretty much the traditional SA provinces in all but name.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Contrived? In what way? Its pretty much the traditional SA provinces in all but name.

i guess thats the point...if theyre pretty much the existing teams...why did we need new ones with snazzy 90's names, same with us in NZ, we had one of the best domestic comps in the world...then created these franchises "above" them...and left the old unions to rot...and wondered why support slowly started dwindling

it seems to be a real SH idea that international rugby has to be the sole focus, like Heinikens Springboks A through Springboks D idea...just makes a bigger disconnect between local rugby and the top game, will fans of teams be happy if their best players get shuffled around each year to spread talent?

 

[elavery]

In my opinion the old Super 10 was better than anything Super Rugby has ever dished up. The battle for Super 10 qualification in each domestic competition, followed up by a cut-throat format that didn't drag on was best. There was even a Pacific Island team involved!

 

[Kiwiwomble]

In my opinion the old Super 10 was better than anything Super Rugby has ever dished up. The battle for Super 10 qualification in each domestic competition, followed up by a cut-throat format that didn't drag on was best. There was even a Pacific Island team involved!

yeah, ive long been an advocate of the champions league / Super 10 type approach, domestic comps with top teams getting to play super rugby the next year, adds something to play for rather than just bragging rights and keeps a straight line connection from local club or school boy rugby to International rugby

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

i guess thats the point...if theyre pretty much the existing teams...why did we need new ones with snazzy 90's names, same with us in NZ, we had one of the best domestic comps in the world...then created these franchises "above" them...and left the old unions to rot...and wondered why support slowly started dwindling

it seems to be a real SH idea that international rugby has to be the sole focus, like Heinikens Springboks A through Springboks D idea...just makes a bigger disconnect between local rugby and the top game, will fans of teams be happy if their best players get shuffled around each year to spread talent?

Okay yeah I don't like the names either. In my mind when I see the Sharks/Bulls/Lions VS Stormers written in a line-up page I kinda do a mental head tilt and 'see' N Transvaal et al VS W Province.

yeah, ive long been an advocate of the champions league / Super 10 type approach, domestic comps with top teams getting to play super rugby the next year, adds something to play for rather than just bragging rights and keeps a straight line connection from local club or school boy rugby to International rugby

In my opinion the old Super 10 was better than anything Super Rugby has ever dished up. The battle for Super 10 qualification in each domestic competition, followed up by a cut-throat format that didn't drag on was best. There was even a Pacific Island team involved!

Yeah maybe in the future when Aus has a viable domestic competition up and running. In the meantime its experimentation time with the Trans-Tasman thing and ProXX. Might be interesting for novelty's sake.

 

[TRF_heineken]

i guess thats the point...if theyre pretty much the existing teams...why did we need new ones with snazzy 90's names, same with us in NZ, we had one of the best domestic comps in the world...then created these franchises "above" them...and left the old unions to rot...and wondered why support slowly started dwindling

it seems to be a real SH idea that international rugby has to be the sole focus, like Heinikens Springboks A through Springboks D idea...just makes a bigger disconnect between local rugby and the top game, will fans of teams be happy if their best players get shuffled around each year to spread talent?

If there will be a shuffle, it would be minimal due to contracting issues.

It would be senseless to switch Morne Steyn and Curwin Bosch as an example. But it could be that someone like Muller Uys at the Bulls, who might be behind Duane Vermeulen, Arno Botha and Marco van Staden in the loose forwards pecking order, to join maybe the Sharks or the Lions.

I think the suggestion of a switch-up, would mostly be for fringe players, and the new kids on the block who aren't household names yet.

And if there were to be a switch-up, it would be to benefit not only a team, but the player(s) as well. Maybe looking at the player where he played as a youth and if he's now at a different region than then.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

If there will be a shuffle, it would be minimal due to contracting issues.

It would be senseless to switch Morne Steyn and Curwin Bosch as an example. But it could be that someone like Muller Uys at the Bulls, who might be behind Duane Vermeulen, Arno Botha and Marco van Staden in the loose forwards pecking order, to join maybe the Sharks or the Lions.

I think the suggestion of a switch-up, would mostly be for fringe players, and the new kids on the block who aren't household names yet.

And if there were to be a switch-up, it would be to benefit not only a team, but the player(s) as well. Maybe looking at the player where he played as a youth and if he's now at a different region than then.

i guess then the next question, who decides? SAR? take the power away from the individual coaches? or the coaches decided...but what happened when they disagree?

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Having a look at the squads and results of SR it has to be the Lions that drop out or merge with the Bulls (can you imagine that!) or Cheetahs (though the Bulls would be more feasible location-wise as we KNOW the Cats were totally unfeasible).

Sharks and Stormers are both the best supported teams (bums on seats-wise) and best performing overall (looking at win-loss ratio). These were also topping the log early on in SR this year.

The Bulls on the other hand have invested significantly and actually have SR trophies in their purple patch dispute their overall record not being the hottest. The Lions in contrast have shed players en masse.

Cheetahs also have the inside track on the Lions ITO already having Pro experience, being Currie Cup champs and recruiting heavily whilst being geographically distinct as the only central SA team IE the geographic spread of Stormers for West and South, Cheeaths for central, Sharks, East coast and Bulls North makes sense in a geographic way if not population density way. I'd not be surprised to see an announcement to this effect sooner rather than later.

Sad for the Lions and Kings though but I can understand how it is that we can only field 4 teams in Pro Rugby.

 

[TRF_heineken]

i guess then the next question, who decides? SAR? take the power away from the individual coaches? or the coaches decided...but what happened when they disagree?

It would be with SARU, under the management of the Director of Rugby (Rassie Erasmus), with the unions, all in agreement to the proposal. (which won't happen). The coaches will have to work with what they get then

Having a look at the squads and results of SR it has to be the Lions that drop out or merge with the Bulls (can you imagine that!) or Cheetahs (though the Bulls would be more feasible location-wise as we KNOW the Cats were totally unfeasible).

Sharks and Stormers are both the best supported teams (bums on seats-wise) and best performing overall (looking at win-loss ratio). These were also topping the log early on in SR this year.

The Bulls on the other hand have invested significantly and actually have SR trophies in their purple patch dispute their overall record not being the hottest. The Lions in contrast have shed players en masse.

Cheetahs also have the inside track on the Lions ITO already having Pro experience, being Currie Cup champs and recruiting heavily whilst being geographically distinct as the only central SA team IE the geographic spread of Stormers for West and South, Cheeaths for central, Sharks, East coast and Bulls North makes sense in a geographic way if not population density way. I'd not be surprised to see an announcement to this effect sooner rather than later.

Sad for the Lions and Kings though but I can understand how it is that we can only field 4 teams in Pro Rugby.

Yup. Although, it would be unwise not to take into account the trouble WPRU are in at the moment, and it doesn't seem that there is any resolutions to their problems.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

It would be with SARU, under the management of the Director of Rugby (Rassie Erasmus), with the unions, all in agreement to the proposal. (which won't happen). The coaches will have to work with what they get then



Yup. Although, it would be unwise not to take into account the trouble WPRU are in at the moment, and it doesn't seem that there is any resolutions to their problems.

Don't say it! Goodness, now I know what Lions/Cheetahs supporters must feel like...

This is/was? actually the perfect time for SAR to totally bypass the Provincial Unions and set up centrally controlled streamlined franchises under their direct administration. That or empower the club game / go the private enterprise route.

Rugby in the WP (as opposed to the WPRU) would be the big winner in that regard. As is we are carrying way too much political baggage and there are too many hands (that aren't rugby players or staff/active administrators) dipping into the pot.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Don't say it! Goodness, now I know what Lions/Cheetahs supporters must feel like...

This is/was? actually the perfect time for SAR to totally bypass the Provincial Unions and set up centrally controlled streamlined franchises under their direct administration. That or empower the club game / go the private enterprise route.

Rugby in the WP (as opposed to the WPRU) would be the big winner in that regard. As is we are carrying way too much political baggage and there are too many hands (that aren't rugby players or staff/active administrators) dipping into the pot.

The problem is that we are only looking at the big 5. And we are forgetting that there are actually 16 unions involved. So the other 11 unions would also then want centralised contracts, and that's where SARU will burn a lot of money, as most of those unions' players are semi-pro or amateur level players, and only get some form of payment by way of match fees. It would be a financial burden to go that route.

But yeah, the franchises, of which there are now 7 left, after the Kings implosion, could look at going the centralised route. Although, I think SARU would only commit if they can get all the remaining franchises involved in a tournament of some sort where they can generate revenue...

 

[Kiwiwomble]

It would be with SARU, under the management of the Director of Rugby (Rassie Erasmus), with the unions, all in agreement to the proposal. (which won't happen). The coaches will have to work with what they get then

so not a true club comp...would be very much be 4 Springbok development teams

 

[TRF_heineken]

so not a true club comp...would be very much be 4 Springbok development teams

Well yes, and no. It will only be local players. So all our foreign based springbok candidates will still play for their overseas teams.

And due to the limitations on the amount of teams we can enter, the idea is to put the best players forward, which on one side will make that team stronger, but also enhance the probability for the springboks to have 60+ players match-fit and ready to play should there be an international match or tournament available for them. Plus the added incentive of the B&I Lions tour next year.

We have 7 franchises, but we can only play 4 according to the reports, so that is at least 90 players who'll be missing out on squad selection. That's really tough.