Springboks' blindside flanker, if...

[madflyhalf]

...Juan Smith wouldn't be fit for the RWC

Hopefully he will, but anyway:

François Louw has already been capped, in 2010 3N he didn't perform as well as in Super Rugby, but he has talent! Clearly a different player than Smith, I think he's a hybrid flanker: mixing both openside and blindside style, but this makes him well balanced along with Schalk Burger

Willem Alberts is different again, powerful ball carrier, very physical and bullying player, can cover 8 spot too

Jean Deysel could be Alberts' twin brother, he has almost the same style of play, both are well involved in breakdowns. IMO he is a better lineout option (than Alberts)

Dewald Potgieter could be an option, but this year I've lost him along the Super Rugby campaign... seemed not as so effective as in the past!

Ashley Johnson played well this year, but maybe he's not solid in defence as the test level rugby requires.


These are players who've been outstanding during SuperXV, but I still think that Danie Rossouw is the right options to fit Juan Smith's boots, despite starting on the bench for many matches, he always seemed to be one of the most in form Bulls player this season. Assuming PDV's won't start without Spies at 8man, I suppose Alberts will be on the bench.
Of course it depends on locks options too...


What do you think about this?

 

[nickdnz]

I've actually become a big Ashley Johnson fan this Super 14. His defence isn't brilliant, but it's not as bad as some people make out. In attack he seems like a similar player to someone like Chris Masoe. I think he'd compliment someone like Brussow pretty well. There is the option of 6.Brussow, 7.Burger, 8. Alberts, 18. Johnson. I like the look of that team.

 

[JJR]

Deysel is shorter than Alberts...how can he be a better lineout jumper/option?

I feel Alberts has to be next in line after Smith for 7. 119kg; 1.92m and very mobile for his size; that is why he has generally been considered at 8 for most of his career.
Deysel is Slower than Alberts; but makes up for it with very strong skills at the breakdown. Amazing how well he can carry the ball up and also get his Big Frame down and compete at the Breakdowns. Danie Rossouw is another option, also around 118kg and 1.96m. Like most Bok teams; they like having 3 looseforwards that are good lineout options. Danie is Def. one of the best as he is a player that can play 4/7 and 8.

So my Order for Blindside Flank if Smith does not Recover in time.
1.Alberts
2.Rossouw
3.Deysel; does not have enough experience at international level, Yet.

I think this will be The Boks loosies to go to The World Cup.

Smith (I think he will be fit in time), Spies, Burger, Brussouw, Alberts. Danie will probably be selected as the back up 4 for Bakkies; but will cover 7 and 8 if required. Also Depends on weather conditions, opposition, etc. Danie usually performs at his best when used for 30 minutes at the end of a game.

 

[madflyhalf]

Deysel is shorter than Alberts...how can he be a better lineout jumper/option?

Boh...:huh:
Maybe just because I've seen him used in the lineouts more than Alberts

 

[JJR]

Boh...:huh:
Maybe just because I've seen him used in the lineouts more than Alberts

Bra, i have been a Sharks supporter for The last 15 years...i already saw Deysel when he was playing Club Rugby in Gauteng, before he even came for a trial match at The Sharks a few years back. He is not a better lineout option than Alberts. Alberts is taller and a more explosive runner, which means he should jump higher than Deysel. Deysel has just been used a bit lately because The Sharks lineout has been terrible this season and they were simply trying every option; even jacques Botes was jumping in the Lineouts, Ha Ha.
Deysel is not a better lineout option than Willem but, he is a great ball carrier, Strong Defender and solid fetcher. Not saying he can't be used on and off in the lineouts to keep the opposition guessing though, just saying Alberts is a better lineout jumper.

 

[Draggs]

Alberts is a liability, and best used as an impact sub.
I would go with Deysel, but I am a big Deysel fan anyway (avatar).
Danie Rossouw would be a very good option, and is a highly underrated player.

 

[Darwin]

Deysel is shorter than Alberts...how can he be a better lineout jumper/option?

I feel Alberts has to be next in line after Smith for 7. 119kg; 1.92m and very mobile for his size; that is why he has generally been considered at 8 for most of his career.
Deysel is Slower than Alberts; but makes up for it with very strong skills at the breakdown. Amazing how well he can carry the ball up and also get his Big Frame down and compete at the Breakdowns. Danie Rossouw is another option, also around 118kg and 1.96m. Like most Bok teams; they like having 3 looseforwards that are good lineout options. Danie is Def. one of the best as he is a player that can play 4/7 and 8.

So my Order for Blindside Flank if Smith does not Recover in time.
1.Alberts
2.Rossouw
3.Deysel; does not have enough experience at international level, Yet.

I think this will be The Boks loosies to go to The World Cup.

Smith (I think he will be fit in time), Spies, Burger, Brussouw, Alberts. Danie will probably be selected as the back up 4 for Bakkies; but will cover 7 and 8 if required. Also Depends on weather conditions, opposition, etc. Danie usually performs at his best when used for 30 minutes at the end of a game.

Why am I not surprised that the three players you choose are probably the three biggest players available

I've actually become a big Ashley Johnson fan this Super 14. His defence isn't brilliant, but it's not as bad as some people make out. In attack he seems like a similar player to someone like Chris Masoe. I think he'd compliment someone like Brussow pretty well. There is the option of 6.Brussow, 7.Burger, 8. Alberts, 18. Johnson. I like the look of that team.

Your right Johnson's defence isn't as bad as some people make out... it's worse! He has missed more tackles than nearly any other player in the competition (not something you really want from your blindside flanker!) In addition he has a very poor work-rate; he seldom hits breakdowns, but rather stands-off waiting to have another run with the ball in hand (or miss another tackle...), and his handling poor. He is a very powerful ball runner, but I'd be delighted if the AB's were facing him in the RWC.

I'd be tempted to go with Brussow and Burger on the flanks (as Nickdnz suggests), or even Louw and Burger. Although Louw is definately not the most flashy player, he has a huge work-rate, is strong defensively, and is effective at stealing the ball at the breakdown. I feel his style of play really compliments that of Burger as well; both a strong at the breakdown, but I wouldn't consider either an 'out and out' openside flanker. One of the reasons that the Stormers have been so effective this year is their defense, which has been lead by Burger, Louw, and Vermeulen (who I'd probably find a place for in the squad too..). My only real concern about Louw is the number of penalties he has conceded this year. If the Boks are planning on playing a very tight forward oriented game, the likes of Rossouw or Alberts could be options too.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Surely Burger is the incumbent and best back-up option. That's assuming Brussow is playing fetcher and Spies (sigh) will be starting at 8. With Rossouw on the bench.

 

[madflyhalf]

Brussow needs some playing minutes before the start of the campaign... I don't think he's in the match 22 now.

Rossouw doesn't look to have a full 80' hi-paced game on his legs, but I still don't know if he could be a good starter for 60', or a good impact player from the bench in the last 20'-30'... He's still a great lineout option hard to left out until the last stages of a match.


Will Vermeulen be fit for RWC?
I read "patellar tendon rupture"... it would take a lot of time to recover!

 

[nickdnz]

Your right Johnson's defence isn't as bad as some people make out... it's worse! He has missed more tackles than nearly any other player in the competition (not something you really want from your blindside flanker!) In addition he has a very poor work-rate; he seldom hits breakdowns, but rather stands-off waiting to have another run with the ball in hand (or miss another tackle...), and his handling poor. He is a very powerful ball runner, but I'd be delighted if the AB's were facing him in the RWC.

Didn't notice that, but I don't doubt you're right. I still would like to see him in the squad, if for no other reason then to see him in some of the smaller pool matches.

Brussow needs some playing minutes before the start of the campaign... I don't think he's in the match 22 now.

Rossouw doesn't look to have a full 80' hi-paced game on his legs, but I still don't know if he could be a good starter for 60', or a good impact player from the bench in the last 20'-30'... He's still a great lineout option hard to left out until the last stages of a match.


Will Vermeulen be fit for RWC?
I read "patellar tendon rupture"... it would take a lot of time to recover!

I'd chuck Rossouw on instead of Bakkies Botha. Rossouw is just as much of a beast, but doesn't make as many stupid errors. He's about two inches shorter, but I think he's pretty much as effective in the lineout. The problem I have with Rossouw at flanker/8, is that he isn't quite mobile enough. He has a good work rate, but he's not a person who will make it to the breakdown first

 

[JJR]

Why am I not surprised that the three players you choose are probably the three biggest players available

There size is what makes them as effective as they are; that is why i choose them.

BTW; we have tried Burger at Blindside; not as effective as a bigger Alberts or Rossouw. We need a Blindside that can get us over the advantage line comfortably. Burger too often gets stopped in his tracks; Burger is a good Ball Carrier, but not the best we have; Burger is the Workhorse looseforward that has a mix of attributes. Just look at it 6.Brussouw 7.Burger 8.Spies....looks a bit light in my opinion, not enough balance. 6.Brussouw/Burger 7.Alberts/Deysel/Rossouw/Smith* 8.Spies/Alberts/Rossouw...aaaahhh, much better. Our World Cup loose forward options right there...looks Bladdy Awesome!!!!

 

[nickdnz]

Why am I not surprised that the three players you choose are probably the three biggest players available

There size is what makes them as effective as they are; that is why i choose them.

BTW; we have tried Burger at Blindside; not as effective as a bigger Alberts or Rossouw. We need a Blindside that can get us over the advantage line comfortably. Burger too often gets stopped in his tracks; Burger is a good Ball Carrier, but not the best we have; Burger is the Workhorse looseforward that has a mix of attributes. Just look at it 6.Brussouw 7.Burger 8.Spies....looks a bit light in my opinion, not enough balance. 6.Brussouw/Burger 7.Alberts/Deysel/Rossouw/Smith* 8.Spies/Alberts/Rossouw...aaaahhh, much better. Our World Cup loose forward options right there...looks Bladdy Awesome!!!!

You're obsessed with size...compensating? Fact is, during the last Tri Nations Burger was the second best ball carrying loose forward in terms of metres gained. He's not huge, but he's big enough to be effective, while he has a huge work rate. Look at the best blindsides in rugby for the past 15 years; Richard Hill, Jerry Collins, Jason White...Schalk Burger is already heavier than any of them. He's good in the loose, tackles hard and makes the metres. Why bother having a fat runner at blindside as well as number 8?

Another way to look at it:

England's likely loose forwards: Tom Croft (104kgs), Lewis Moody (103kgs), Nick Easter (112kgs) Total Weight: 319kgs
Australia's likely loose forwards: Rocky Elsom (112kgs), David Pocock (103kgs), Wycliff Palu (118kgs) Total Weight: 333kgs
New Zealand's likely loose forwards: Jerome Kaino (106kgs), Richie McCaw (105kgs), Kieran Read 104kgs) Total Weight: 315kgs
My South Africa loose forwards: Schalk Burger (112kgs), Heinrich Brussow (100kgs), Willem Alberts (117kgs) Total Weight: 329kgs
Your South African loose forwards: Danie Rossouw (117kgs), Schalk Burger (112kgs), Willem Alberts (117kgs) Total Weight: 346kgs

My SA squad is still the second heaviest pack (it would be first, as I'm not convinced Wycliff Palu will be the starting 8 this RWC). What will all that extra weight achieve, except to help in the scrums? The lightest packs out of all (NZ) dominated the breakdowns last Tri Nations and made more running metres, despite being smaller.

 

[Darwin]

didn't notice that, but i don't doubt you're right. I still would like to see him in the squad, if for no other reason then to see him in some of the smaller pool matches.

Fair enough. I actually read an interesting analysis of Ashley Johnson the other day (albeit only from only one game) here. I just can't stand loose-forwards that can't tackle; if the loosie can't tackle to a reasonable standard I wouldn't have him anywhere near my team, no matter what else they offer. It is probably the same as you are with wings: if they aren't very quick and can't break tackles you wouldn't select them, no matter what else they offer!

there size is what makes them as effective as they are; that is why i choose them. Btw; we have tried burger at blindside; not as effective as a bigger alberts or rossouw. We need a blindside that can get us over the advantage line comfortably. Burger too often gets stopped in his tracks; burger is a good ball carrier, but not the best we have; burger is the workhorse looseforward that has a mix of attributes. Just look at it 6.brussouw 7.burger 8.spies....looks a bit light in my opinion, not enough balance. 6.brussouw/burger 7.alberts/deysel/rossouw/smith* 8.spies/alberts/rossouw...aaaahhh, much better. our world cup loose forward options right there...looks bladdy awesome!!!!

I personally think Burger is most effective when he is playing the role of a blindside flanker. He largely does this for the Stormers; him and Louw play left/right at scrum-time, but Louw probably plays more like a traditional openside, hitting many more rucks trying to turnover/slow opposition ball. This allows Burger to play a more roaming role, getting his hands on the ball a lot more, either hitting it up or linking with the backs.

I'm not completely against having a big powerful ball runner in the loose-trio, but if that player lacks mobility the loose-trio can be less effective as a whole as the remaining loosies have to compensate for this, and are hence less effective themselves. You have to realise that size - while it can be an advantage - certainly isn't everything: the All Blacks loose-trio was easily the most effective during last years Tri-Nations, despite not having one player as heavy as (the apparently too small) Schalk Burger

 

[madflyhalf]

I personally think Burger is most effective when he is playing the role of a blindside flanker. He largely does this for the Stormers; him and Louw play left/right at scrum-time, but Louw probably plays more like a traditional openside, hitting many more rucks trying to turnover/slow opposition ball. This allows Burger to play a more roaming role, getting his hands on the ball a lot more, either hitting it up or linking with the backs.

I completely agree!

We've seen a very competitive Stormers side, especially in the last two years, with an expansive game, with some awesome attacking display, and this came (also) thanks to a very dynamic loose trio!
I mean: with the Stormers, Burger does much more runs than hits/ruck, but with Springboks he does the opposite.
Early in 2010 S14 campaign, with some friends, I was pointing on Burger as stand-off player in a style of playing that from a set piece (i.e. lineout) makes a ruck spotted right in the midfield, with 2 backrows, a hooker and Bekker going on the far side with Burger as first reciver!
Dynamic forwards finish to spread the ball wide to the opposite touchline, and if they are stopped, the defenders has to reorganise themselves; from here, a very quick ball re-spreaded wide in the opposite direction can lead immediatly due to bad defenders positioning.

It's a simple playing style, but so effective.

And, IMO, Burger plays much better in Super Rugby than with Springboks... maybe it's just a matter of perfectly balanced backrows, but you can't say it doesn't work!


In this spotlight (so assuming PDV will change his gameplan = impossible), you can pick both Stormers flankers, daring with
6 Burger
7 Louw
8 Alberts/Vermeulen

- Spies/Alberts on the bench, depending if Vermeulen will be fit

If I still wanted a pure fetcher, I'd go with:
8 Burger
7 Rossouw
6 Brussow

- Alberts coming from the bench in place of Rossouw at 60'


But I still think PDV is going to do the same things seen in the last 18 months so

8 Spies (sigh)
7 Rossouw
6 Burger

But then he will realize that Spies can't tackle, Rossouw has to make defensive work for both himself and Spies and will last 40', and he will field Brussow as a substitute, without any idea of what type of attacking game to have.


Bet on it!

 

[Larksea]

thought François Louw would be most likely

 

[nickdnz]

Fair enough. I actually read an interesting analysis of Ashley Johnson the other day (albeit only from only one game) here. I just can't stand loose-forwards that can't tackle; if the loosie can't tackle to a reasonable standard I wouldn't have him anywhere near my team, no matter what else they offer. It is probably the same as you are with wings: if they aren't very quick and can't break tackles you wouldn't select them, no matter what else they offer!

That video did seem pretty damning. On a similar note, did you catch Graham Henry's review on Reunion regarding Fritz Lee. Another player who I thought was a reasonable tackler, but I must have missed something. I generally agree that a loose forward has to be a good tackler, I just never noticed how poor Johnson was at it.

 

[Darwin]

That video did seem pretty damning. On a similar note, did you catch Graham Henry's review on Reunion regarding Fritz Lee. Another player who I thought was a reasonable tackler, but I must have missed something. I generally agree that a loose forward has to be a good tackler, I just never noticed how poor Johnson was at it.

I missed Reunion this week, so didn't see the piece on Lee. What was the issue with Lee's tackling? I've always thought Lee was a reasonable tackler, though like many powerful young loosies he tends to go for big hits far to often; players that do this can slip off quite a few tackles (Levave is another NZ player who can be quite guilty of this).

 

[nickdnz]

I missed Reunion this week, so didn't see the piece on Lee. What was the issue with Lee's tackling? I've always thought Lee was a reasonable tackler, though like many powerful young loosies he tends to go for big hits far to often; players that do this can slip off quite a few tackles (Levave is another NZ player who can be quite guilty of this).

Henry pretty much said he just never tackles anyone, so he won't be looked at for the All Blacks. This was after his game for the Chiefs, which I thought he did pretty well. I see your point about the big hits. I loved Jerry Collins for it but I guess the trick is to go for a safer tackling technique if there is doubt of a hit not coming off.

 

[Seaton]

Bra, i have been a Sharks supporter for The last 15 years...i already saw Deysel when he was playing Club Rugby in Gauteng, before he even came for a trial match at The Sharks a few years back. He is not a better lineout option than Alberts. Alberts is taller and a more explosive runner, which means he should jump higher than Deysel. Deysel has just been used a bit lately because The Sharks lineout has been terrible this season and they were simply trying every option; even jacques Botes was jumping in the Lineouts, Ha Ha.
Deysel is not a better lineout option than Willem but, he is a great ball carrier, Strong Defender and solid fetcher. Not saying he can't be used on and off in the lineouts to keep the opposition guessing though, just saying Alberts is a better lineout jumper.

After this season, arguing which of the Sharks players is a better line-out jumper is like a bunch of midgets arguing over who is the tallest!

 

[mrH]

If Smith does not recover in time we should start with the stormers loose trio (Schalk, Louw and Vermuelen). Johnson should come in for vermuelen if he does not recover in time. It also depends on who we are playing. I think Willem and Danie coming off the bench to the 8 and 4 positions respectively is for the opposition. Danie has slowed down too much from the last world cup to be at Flank or 8 unless its really required. He still does play well in those positions. Even having Brussow off the bench instead of Willem for the last 20-30 mins would work well because thats the time that turnovers and retention become critical to winning. With all those tired arms/bodies at the breakdown it should make things easier for Brussow. Schalk could move to 8 and Vermuelen/Johnson would come off. I dont see a place for Spies. Louw should be able to resolve the flank line out issue.