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The English club system.

psychic duck

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It's a fundamentally **** system.

Argentina have improved because they've been playing regularly against teams which don't use it.

And yet their recent record over the past couple of years against 6N sides is heavily weighted on the loss side.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh yes... Scotland's two PRO12 sides are really comparable with the SANZAR equivalent, how silly of me... not to mention Italian powerhouse Zebre.

Even if you don't give a **** about international or representative sport - it's an inferior system.
If you only care about domestic competition then a North American style league is superior.

NFL style league are impossible when you have an international game to deal with as well.
 

ratsapprentice

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Fine, let's go back to basics. You barely talked about anything in your opening post, hence my perhaps more leading questions, since you offered virtually no information yourself.

You don't like the system. Why not? What are the negatives?

I didn't really intend for this to be a discussion, hence why the OP didn't have a question.

We've talked about it ad nauseam in other threads.
 

Raggs

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So you started a new thread on a discussion forum, to not have a discussion. Have you interneted before?... ;)
 

ratsapprentice

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And yet their recent record over the past couple of years against 6N sides is heavily weighted on the loss side.
NFL style league are impossible when you have an international game to deal with as well.

You don think Argentina have significantly improved in the last 4 years?

I know it's incompatible with international competition - I insinuated as much in the post you quoted.
 

Tallshort

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HAve England gone backwards because of the AP or because the RFU cannot appoint the right head coach?
 

j'nuh

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I didn't bring up the Pumas, but since you have...
The primary factor behind Argentina's recent improvement has been them playing in the RC, do you think they would have improved anywhere near as much had they joined the 6N?
No - they are directly benefiting from the pyramidal system of the three SANZAR nations, which has consistently found said countries at the top of the international pile in the professional era.
But the NH plays SANZAR just as frequently as Argentina does (~6 games a year).

And Argentina have still only won 2/11 games against the NH in the last 4 years, and have a worse record, as a win percentage, against SANZAR, than most home nations.

I don't disagree with your general point, but I don't think Argentina are a great example, very recent history aside.
 

Kripke

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I'd perhaps argue that the style Argentina have developed which has led them to this sucess has as much to do with NOT being involved in the Six nations as it does with BEING involved in the Rugby Championship :p. I'm being a little bit flippant here but I sort of think Argentina have had a certain style to the way they play for some time.
 

Mattybuck

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I also put Bath success above England success, a view I'm sure others would disagree with.

I would not wish to see an end to clubs like Bath, Glaws, Tigers and so on.

The history and rivalries are fantastic.

The AP is improving and is already considered a very competitive league, with only perhaps one genuinely weak side in it per season.

I don't want all that sold off for the sake of the England team.
 

psychic duck

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You don think Argentina have significantly improved in the last 4 years?

I know it's incompatible with international competition - I insinuated as much in the post you quoted.

Well yes, but they had a naff coach and an ageing team with several key players past their best in 2011. Now they have a younger side with much promise, but I would still far rather be in the position of the 6 Nations right now, and I wouldn't be get overly carried away with this RWC if I were the SANZAR nations. It's NZ who are dominating and producing great depth, the others are beatable and under pressure from the money at European clubs that will bite away at them gradually. I'd be more worried for their future in terms of the finances than any of the NH.

And anyway, regardless, I enjoy the club game equally to international personally. The last thing I would want to see is a neutered watered down club game that was solely to feed an international side. If you swapped out the atmosphere, history and vibrancy Clermont or Toulon bring to the sport in favour of some empty boring franchise shît as a feeder for national sides then I personally wouldn't bother watching domestic rugby so much any more. It simply doesn't happen, mainly because it's a ghastly idea.
 

Mattybuck

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Don't think that the AP is to blame and all to do with poor elite coaching team.

How are Wales, Ireland and Scotland doing better? They got to the QF, Sco and Ire having qualified through vastly easier groups. No great achievement there, and if they think that's a success more fool them.

AP is a more competitive league than PRO12 and Top 14.

6N does however need looking at with at least the introduction of bonus points.
 

YoungScud

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How is the English league inferior to the Argentinian product/system? This should be interesting.

As for fewer teams, doing what? Playing in a British league? No thanks, we already dominate both tiers of the eurocup compared to 90% of the rest of the British sides, making our teams stronger still will not change that.

We have a successful 12 team league that is self contained, the money is improving, more clubs have stability, the quality of the product is constantly improving. What if we jump to 6 sides, they have no one to play, 80% of the support drops because they have no affiliation, and the money runs out?

Can improvements be made? Hell yes. However, I think looking into rearranging the season, especially a move to summer, could be a far more sensible way, than juggling with one of the more successful leagues in the world.

Domi-what-now? remind me who ended up in the semis last year in the Championship? Who contested the final? Then onto the Challenge Cup. In the semis, one ach from wales and Scotland, two English clubs. The final was between Edinburgh and Glawster. Now, I'm not sure what your dictionary's definition of domination is, but I won't be buying a copy. Your arithmetic needs a bit of work too.
 

ncurd

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Domi-what-now? remind me who ended up in the semis last year in the Championship? Who contested the final? Then onto the Challenge Cup. In the semis, one ach from wales and Scotland, two English clubs. The final was between Edinburgh and Glawster. Now, I'm not sure what your dictionary's definition of domination is, but I won't be buying a copy. Your arithmetic needs a bit of work too.
You mean the champions cup where 4 of the Quarter Finalists were English and only one from the pro-12 (read British)? Or as you said the challenge cup where again we made up 50% of every stage of the knock-outs. My maths makes British Isles teams should have 2 teams each in the QF's so we have 100% more than we should have.
 

j'nuh

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I also put Bath success above England success, a view I'm sure others would disagree with.

I would not wish to see an end to clubs like Bath, Glaws, Tigers and so on.

The history and rivalries are fantastic.

The AP is improving and is already considered a very competitive league, with only perhaps one genuinely weak side in it per season.

I don't want all that sold off for the sake of the England team.
Agreed. That being said, the ideal would be to have it all. A competitive Premiership to keep the rivalries, an elite Euro league above it, with internationals playing in it alongside the international game. The added bonus is we can limit the number of games an international plays.

e.g. in a 52 week calendar:

For "top" non-internationals:
Weeks 1-22: Premiership main season
Weeks 23-24: Premiership semi and final
Weeks 25-35: Rest, Euro league pre-season
Weeks 36-49: 14 game Euro league (15 teams, all play each other once, one bye)
Weeks 50-51: Euro league semis and finals (rest for teams not involved)
Week 52: Rest (they also get rested at the start of the Premiership and phased into teams around 5 weeks in)

For internationals:
Weeks 1-4: AIs
Weeks 14-20: Six Nations
Weeks 29-34: Summer tour
Weeks 36-51: Euro league

To facilitate it all, all players have a Premiership club and a Euro region. In week ~48, the EPS is announced. Any international then misses the Premiership and the Premiership teams are given the time to work around missing these players.
 
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Tallshort

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You mean the champions cup where 4 of the Quarter Finalists were English and only one from the pro-12 (read British)? Or as you said the challenge cup where again we made up 50% of every stage of the knock-outs. My maths makes British Isles teams should have 2 teams each in the QF's so we have 100% more than we should have.

ignore him mate, he only comes on here when he finds something to be offended about.
 

valley commando

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Don't think that the AP is to blame and all to do with poor elite coaching team.

How are Wales, Ireland and Scotland doing better? They got to the QF, Sco and Ire having qualified through vastly easier groups. No great achievement there, and if they think that's a success more fool them.

AP is a more competitive league than PRO12 and Top 14.

6N does however need looking at with at least the introduction of bonus points.

Pro rata strictly from player numbers then certainly Wales and Ireland out perform England, Wales improvement has come since the regions began and is a direct result of the regions although I am still not happy with the way they were set up and would much rather see 2 regions an East and West.


The following are rules applying to Welsh Premier league clubs, another plus point in the development of Welsh players -:

Premier Division Clubs and Championship Clubs who have been granted an A Licence
pursuant to the National League Rules may register up to 2 non-Welsh qualified players who
will at any one time be eligible to play for it in the National League (i.e. if one or both nonWelsh
qualified player(s) leave the Club he/they may be replaced providing the number of nonWelsh
qualified players at that Club does not exceed 2). In the case of a professional or semiprofessional
player from outside the EC and who does not have EC workers rights, a licence to
employ the player must be obtained by the Club from the UK Border Agency. An application
for a licence to employ a professional or semi-professional rugby player has to be supported
by the Union. The WRU will not support an application for a licence to employ a professional or
semi-professional rugby player other than an application made by a Professional Region, a
Development Region, a Premier Division Club and a Championship Club which has been
granted an A Licence pursuant to the National League Rules. The numbers of non-Welsh
qualified players which may be registered and/or contracted by a Professional Region is
governed by the Rugby Services Agreements between the WRU and the Regional
Organisations.
 

YoungScud

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ignore him mate, he only comes on here when he finds something to be offended about.

For offended, read amused. One team out of four reaching one set of semis, while France have two and Scotland one isn't how I'd define domination. Domination is the state of winning a lot of the silverware.
 

Peat

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Even if there was no international rugby, I'd have no particular brief for English club rugby in its current form. The quality of entertainment is variable at best and I don't really care about the rivalries as I don't come from the right part of the country. I don't think I'd have ever really started to care about the game without international rugby in fact.

Would switching to a North American style league make for a better experience? I think removing promotion and relegation would allow for more attractive rugby and long-termism in developing players. I think selecting sides for promotion would do a far better job of spreading rugby to the whole country. Right now, large amounts of England's rugby loving population don't (ime) care about the clubs and have no reason to do so. In fairness, PRL has asked for that - but if there's no promotion and relegation, then what are the clubs but very oddly placed franchises? History and tradition do very odd things to us at times.

edit: That's just one man though.

Mindyou, this is all before considering the international game; and the Premiership has a lot to prove as a provider of international rugby players.

NFL style league are impossible when you have an international game to deal with as well.

The NHL doesn't deal too badly with the existence of an international game.
 
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valley commando

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There is already a minimum number of eqp in place, it stands at 15/23, about 65%, last seasons average was 72% I believe. As for imports, high quality imports only improve the product and quality, therefore improving the England players too. With 12 teams, we can afford to have 30%+ foreigners since we have plenty of teams, as long as by fluke not every one starts in the same position. Foreign journeymen are an issue, when players likely their equal can be found in the championship, and if they improve help England.

That is a ridiculously high number 6 in 23 would be aprox 26% more than enough. The majority of overseas players are after a pension top up at the end of their respective careers, youngsters with added value to a club won't make the journey as they will miss out on opportunities at home both to improve their game and to get capped. The southern hemisphere super comp is far superior to any of the NH domestic comps, which is why we need a European regional super league.
 

Tallshort

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For offended, read amused. One team out of four reaching one set of semis, while France have two and Scotland one isn't how I'd define domination. Domination is the state of winning a lot of the silverware.

god your boring
 

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