Tier 1 expansion - the great debate.

Discussion in 'General Rugby Union' started by Which Tyler, Oct 13, 2019.

?

What format do you prefer?

  1. Status Quo: 6N, QN, ENC and PNC but never the twain shall meet

  2. Divide by hemisphere: Invite Japan, US and Canada into the ENC; add Uruguay, Namibia, Bra to the PNC

  3. Split Europe v RotW: Promotion/relegation between 6N and ENC; same between QN and PNC

  4. Something else, I'll reply specifically below.

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. The Alpha Bro

    The Alpha Bro Fat Boi

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2010
    Messages:
    12,543
    Location:
    Concussed or something...
    Country Flag:

    Ireland

    Club or Nation:

    Leinster

    Agree with you on this, I think a playoff in the 6N sides home ground is the way to go if we keep the 6n in its current format. And if we're being realistic, with the exception of maybe Italy (and even then I'm not sure) it'll be years before Georgia or anyone else is good enough to beat any 6 nations team away.

    The only thing about this is that it just assumes that the 6 nations is a European competition, for all intents and purposes it is but it never markets itself as such. It's a shame that the US and, to a lesser extent, Georgia crashed and burned at this world cup after good form leading up to it. I'd have been all for Japan and another joining an 8 team competition if the logistics could be sorted out. As I see it now though there's just not enough good teams about and Japan's best route to the top table is South where they'll be desperate for increased revenue.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Forum Ad Advertisement

  3. TRF_Olyy

    TRF_Olyy English Arrogance

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2008
    Messages:
    100,000,234
    Location:
    Lichfield(ish), UK
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    Sale

    Japan are in an awkward position, geographically, to join a major comp - 12hrs from London, 10-11 from South Australia/New Zealand, shortest flight I could see between Tokyo and Buenos Aires was 26hrs. It'll be tough getting sides to agree to that + the time difference (i.e. jetlag) despite the stacks of cash they could bring in (and how much they deserve to be playing in a top level comp).
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2010
    Messages:
    11,185
    Location:
    Polokwane, South Africa
    Country Flag:

    South Africa

    Club or Nation:

    South Africa

    One of the partners at our firm is flying out tomorrow to the WC. From Jo'burg to Singapore - 10hrs. Then from Singapore to Tokyo - 8 hrs (plus add the stopover times and so on). Travel is the probably one of the main factors making it difficult for them to join an already settled tournament...
     
  5. bushytop

    bushytop First XV

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Messages:
    4,095
    Location:
    Here be dragons!
    Country Flag:

    Wales

    Club or Nation:

    London Welsh

    It’s a tough one about whether the 6N (or indeed any non World Cup Rugby Tournament) should be geographical. I think, ultimately (like Endgame, when nations like Germany, Brazil... Korea? etc) they ‘should’ be but until that point I guess it’s fair game.

    Eventually I’d like three decent annual championships along the lines of @TRF_heineken suggestion. A European, a Pan-Pacific & and America’s... all with promotion and relegation play-offs.

    European speaks for itself: 6N & Euro Champs

    Pan Pac: TRC, Pacific Islands and South-East Asia

    America’s: Canada, USA, Argentina, Uruguay, Brazil Chile etc.

    Long (lllloooooooooonnnnnnnggggggg) way off like but you know what I mean.

    South Africa is the only sticking point really as it’s more in line with Europe than Pan Pac. I guess an African Champs would be needed too in that case but I’ve a feeling that would be even further down the road. Not an easy route to this either.
     
  6. Which Tyler

    Which Tyler First XV

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2015
    Messages:
    4,501
    Location:
    Tewkesbury
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    Bath

    There's always the compromise position of promo/rele every other year, which I believe is the precedent set from the ENC, and also takes home advantage out of it.
    You then get a play-off to ensure that the upcoming team is actually better than the downgoing - however hard it is to find that space in the schedule (non-Lions, non-RWC) years would be easier.

    To determine top/bottom - agragate championship points > agragate head-to-head > agragate tries scored > Whoever swapped less recently.
    You could even put in a fudge-factor. If team A finish bottom of the 6N AND team B finishes top of the ENC for both relevant years, then no play-off.

    FTR, I'm in favour of this whether we bring in the NH teams into the ENC or not
     
  7. scotty507

    scotty507 First XV

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2016
    Messages:
    2,332
    Club or Nation:

    Exeter

    Problem is Georgia have scored 62 points this WC with 1 win and 3 losses. 122 conceded. Taking out Uruguay who while improved arnt at any level bar beating a fiji second team. So that means scored 32 - conseced 115.

    Are they going to be a better fit for the 6N than Italy?

    I just dont want promotion and relagation to come in and be up and down between the same teams year in year out with the odd upset where we end up with 2 tier 2 teams for a year then back to just 1. If a team is going to come into the 6N they need to have something in place like their own league or some way to prove they will get better by playing vs tier 1 teams. Georgia dont too good for ENC, not good enough for 6N... it is a tough one though.

    Thats why i think japan with a 3 year net and then evaluate.(i guess 3 year constant bottom team doesnt work).

    Putting georgia in the 6N for a year for them to be comprehensivly beaten to put them back down to get italy back up and repeat doesnt help anyone IMO.
     
  8. profitius

    profitius First XV

    Joined:
    May 6, 2010
    Messages:
    2,088
    Country Flag:

    Ireland

    Club or Nation:

    Munster

    Let's see how Italy develops first. They're a lot better that Georgia but still struggle to win any game in the 6N.
     
  9. Woldog

    Woldog First XV

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2008
    Messages:
    1,617
    Country Flag:

    Australia

    Club or Nation:

    Reds

    Bring back Australia A, toss em in a competition with NZ Maori, Japan, Fiji, Samoa, Tonga. Gives Australia the opportunity to develop some depth. Gives Japan and NZ Maori better opposition
     
  10. Brigantine

    Brigantine Bench Player

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2016
    Messages:
    769
    Location:
    Auckland
    Country Flag:

    New Zealand

    Club or Nation:

    Japan

    Ultimately the 6 Nations and Rugby Championship are fundraisers, and the main criteria for participants is that they contribute to the business case.

    For Japan, this RWC performance is still just a burst of form on home ground. They won't gain much from regular games vs All Blacks, Wallabies, Springboks and England, but frequent tests against teams like Argentina, Scotland, France and Italy would be valuable.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2019
  11. Bruce_ma_goose

    Bruce_ma_goose First XV

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2016
    Messages:
    3,835
    Country Flag:

    Scotland

    Club or Nation:

    Italy

    Remember that we are to start seeing Tier1 games hosted Tier2 nations in the new July Test window next year and a supposed 39% increase in Tier1 vs Tier2 matches. This had better materialise and could be a the last chance saloon for improving the development of the best Tier2 nations (which in turn could make promotion / relegation conversations more positive in the future).

    https://www.therugbyforum.com/threads/calendar-changes.38841/

    Has anyone's test schedule for next year been announced at all?
     
  12. Jabby

    Jabby First XV

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2010
    Messages:
    2,824
    Country Flag:

    New Zealand

    Club or Nation:

    Otago

    The Sunwolves managed it for a few years
     
  13. powerfulduck

    powerfulduck Academy Player

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2011
    Messages:
    102
    Location:
    Birmingham, Uk
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    Moseley

    A potential way around the travel would be for the championship to become the 5N and each team hosts it for a year. Commit to an initial 5 year plan.

    That way the loss of revenue due to not playing would hopefully be recouped by the additional revenue of other games. World Rugby would have to subsidise this for the first 5 years however and it would suck for fans not getting as many home games.

    From an investment point of view, to truly capitalise World Rugby need to pick 2-3 t2 unions and invest heavily while this 5 year program runs in the hope that you could split to 2 4N tournaments off the back of it.
     
  14. TRF_Olyy

    TRF_Olyy English Arrogance

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2008
    Messages:
    100,000,234
    Location:
    Lichfield(ish), UK
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    Sale

    Didn't they play in Singapore?
     
  15. Jabby

    Jabby First XV

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2010
    Messages:
    2,824
    Country Flag:

    New Zealand

    Club or Nation:

    Otago

    they mixed up their home games between singapore, hong kong and japan, trying to rev up some support in the region
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. scotty507

    scotty507 First XV

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2016
    Messages:
    2,332
    Club or Nation:

    Exeter

    I do think im in the minority here that likes the 6N as is and thinks if it is to change there must be a team holding there hand up saying not that they are better than italy because georgia still getting beat 9 times out of 10 isnt much better. IF it is to change we need a team that has enough in place that they will be good in years time. For example Japan America(as in their own home league not logistics) with there own leagues, be great if Japan USA and Fiji could make their own super rugby type league above the one in each of their own countries.

    Big contrast in play styles in 1 league.
     
  17. Jabby

    Jabby First XV

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2010
    Messages:
    2,824
    Country Flag:

    New Zealand

    Club or Nation:

    Otago

    is the point tho there isn't enough opportunity for these team to put their hand up against the top teams?...if Italy are good enough they would be georgia in the promotion game
     
  18. scotty507

    scotty507 First XV

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2016
    Messages:
    2,332
    Club or Nation:

    Exeter

    No thats the thing georgia is the only team thats available for promotion, they deserve a play off with italy or even straight promotion and im not against it. Thing is i just dont care because as i said they will go the way of Italy. Barely winning any games with no solid structure beneither them to compete. Dont get me wrong i want to grow tier 2 rugby i just dont associate playing in the 6N and growing as a direct correlation. There needs to be alot more in place.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. powerfulduck

    powerfulduck Academy Player

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2011
    Messages:
    102
    Location:
    Birmingham, Uk
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    Moseley

    Long term the suggestion that Japan and US can be lumped in with Fiji is mad to me, if the sport catches fire in these countries you will have powerhouses of the game within ten years and the like of Fiji can’t compete. I think if Rugby grows at its current rate the Pacific Islanders will get left behind.

    The only way I can see the Pacific nations being truly competitive long term is pooling their resources like the Windies do in cricket and competeting in a barbarians style fashion.
     
  20. Cruz_del_Sur

    Cruz_del_Sur First XV

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2011
    Messages:
    2,648
    Location:
    Yurop
    Country Flag:

    Argentina

    Club or Nation:

    CASI

    That is already in place. It's called America's Rugby Championship. It's

    Chile
    Uruguay
    Canada
    US
    Brazil
    Argentina XV (our second team)

    No chance UAR sends the pumas there.
     
  21. Jabby

    Jabby First XV

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2010
    Messages:
    2,824
    Country Flag:

    New Zealand

    Club or Nation:

    Otago

    too much tension between countries for that...would be easier getting the home nations to do it, theyve done like the lions, the odd special game but not long term

    and this is my problem...what do any of these teams get for winning?...the pride of beating other tier 2/3 teams...yay..if we want to keep the current comps we need to connect them, give the teams a real reward, a promotion shot...currently we just have loads of reasonably pointless comps..."im the best!...of the teams allowed to play in this comp"
     
Enjoyed this thread? Register to post your reply - click here!

Share This Page

-->