Tier 1 expansion - the great debate.

[die_mole]

I'm fine with keeping the six nations and rugby championship as is.

What I want to see is more regulation of the July and November games.

For 6N and RC nations I'd like to see them follow a schedule that for every x games they play they have to play y games against non 6N or RC nations:
4 total games 2 games against other teams
5/2
6/3
7/3

I'd also like to see other nations follow the example of New Zealand Maori and have their second teams tour tier 3 nations to help spread the game and build their brand.

Maybe have England county champion play Poland or something crazy. Make rugby tours a tool to spread the game at a decent level.

Truth is rugby probably doesn't have enough money but I think the solutions to helping build teams up aren't as impossible as people think.

 

[powerfulduck]

too much tension between countries for that...would be easier getting the home nations to do it, theyve done like the lions, the odd special game but not long term

I know but I think they will cease to be relevant in 20 years if that's the case, resource alone and the second ex of the playing pool will see to that

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I do think im in the minority here that likes the 6N as is and thinks if it is to change there must be a team holding there hand up saying not that they are better than italy because georgia still getting beat 9 times out of 10 isnt much better. IF it is to change we need a team that has enough in place that they will be good in years time. For example Japan America(as in their own home league not logistics) with there own leagues, be great if Japan USA and Fiji could make their own super rugby type league above the one in each of their own countries.

Big contrast in play styles in 1 league.

I agree with you. The only change I'd want to see in the 6n would be if Spain, Germany, Belgium or the US could get to Italy's level or better (only if they play games in the likes of NY, Boston, Chicago etc) Other than that there's no way you can get better and similarly accessible away trips as a fan.

That's strictly as a fan who has little to no interest in going to Tblisi and who doesn't want my union making less money to accommodate Romania and Georgia. Once I actually think either of those two can start sniffing at RWC quarter finals I'll change this stance but until then I'm happy with the status quo and only to change it if it's advantageous to Ireland. This is an absolutely abhorrent thing to say to a Georgian and Romanian fan and I'm aware of that but it's the disadvantages they face.

 

[powerfulduck]

too much tension between countries for that...would be easier getting the home nations to do it, theyve done like the lions, the odd special game but not long term

I know but I think they will cease to be relevant in 20 years if that's the case, resource alone and the second ex of the playing pool will see to that

 

[Scotty]

I dont even talk as a travelling fan and sympathise with Georgian fans but im talking purely from a can they be competitive point of view? Answer no? Then why replace Italy. All it will do is take money away from the comp and take away the italy game from travelling fans, as you said above no interest in travelling to Tblisi.

Japan, can they be competative? Yes
Do they have a sustainable league? Yes, improving home league and current SR franchise.
Is the travelling realistic? Not really
Would it bring money the sport? Yes, potentially huge market.

Same questions to georgia? No no yes(but no one will go) no.

This is what i want asking for a team that replaces italy.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Remember that we are to start seeing Tier1 games hosted Tier2 nations in the new July Test window next year and a supposed 39% increase in Tier1 vs Tier2 matches. This had better materialise and could be a the last chance saloon for improving the development of the best Tier2 nations (which in turn could make promotion / relegation conversations more positive in the future).

https://www.therugbyforum.com/threads/calendar-changes.38841/

Has anyone's test schedule for next year been announced at all?

Nope. I've been trying to find the schedule for the Springboks for next year, everywhere and nada. Then I realised that it's because of the Global Calendar that WR wants to introduce as of next year. So my guess is that there will be a bunch of announcements after this World Cup.

 

[higgik]

I know the SH teams wouldn't like this but how about just having 1 international window in September/October and have a 4-yr cycle with this window.
Yr 1 Lions plus Churchill Cup, Latin Cup, etc, where tier 1 teams play their 2 teams, e.g. England Saxons Wales A, Scotland A, USA, Canada, Australia A

Yr 2 Regional championships - Euro African this also encompasses RWC qualifying, as NO team automatically qualifies. E.g. Euro Africa 6N plus SA, Georgia, Russia, Spain, Namibia, Portugal, 4 groups of 3, group winners play off for Trophy, 2 v 3 for RWC place.

Yr3 Champions Trophy, like the proposed world league 4 Europe/Africa, 2Pacific, 1 America in each division play home or away.

Yr 4 RWC

The 6N would add SA, and would move to mid August, TRC would become a Pacific championship and be played in August.

 

[mdaclarke]

For all the talk I don't see anything changing. Nothing with promotion/relegation will get enough votes from Tier 1 teams.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

For all the talk I don't see anything changing. Nothing with promotion/relegation will get enough votes from Tier 1 teams.

you're probably right

I know the SH teams wouldn't like this but how about just having 1 international window in September/October and have a 4-yr cycle with this window.
Yr 1 Lions plus Churchill Cup, Latin Cup, etc, where tier 1 teams play their 2 teams, e.g. England Saxons Wales A, Scotland A, USA, Canada, Australia A

Yr 2 Regional championships - Euro African this also encompasses RWC qualifying, as NO team automatically qualifies. E.g. Euro Africa 6N plus SA, Georgia, Russia, Spain, Namibia, Portugal, 4 groups of 3, group winners play off for Trophy, 2 v 3 for RWC place.

Yr3 Champions Trophy, like the proposed world league 4 Europe/Africa, 2Pacific, 1 America in each division play home or away.

Yr 4 RWC

The 6N would add SA, and would move to mid August, TRC would become a Pacific championship and be played in August.

i would't mind something like that, Rugby Championship (Pacific Championship) happens in the same years as the 6N?

would add variety each year

 

[Reiser99]

I know the SH teams wouldn't like this but how about just having 1 international window in September/October and have a 4-yr cycle with this window.
Yr 1 Lions plus Churchill Cup, Latin Cup, etc, where tier 1 teams play their 2 teams, e.g. England Saxons Wales A, Scotland A, USA, Canada, Australia A

Yr 2 Regional championships - Euro African this also encompasses RWC qualifying, as NO team automatically qualifies. E.g. Euro Africa 6N plus SA, Georgia, Russia, Spain, Namibia, Portugal, 4 groups of 3, group winners play off for Trophy, 2 v 3 for RWC place.

Yr3 Champions Trophy, like the proposed world league 4 Europe/Africa, 2Pacific, 1 America in each division play home or away.

Yr 4 RWC

The 6N would add SA, and would move to mid August, TRC would become a Pacific championship and be played in August.

I'm confused. I assume 6N's and TRC would be yearly as it's too profitable. Therefore they would be in August and then almost straight into the Autumn windows. When would there be a break? 6N's is 7 weeks long, if it started in mid-August it would end at the start of October.

I like the idea in concept of a 4 year cycle. It would change the dynamic of the internationals an vary it up. Just confused by the 6N's and TRC part.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I'm confused. I assume 6N's and TRC would be yearly as it's too profitable. Therefore they would be in August and then almost straight into the Autumn windows. When would there be a break? 6N's is 7 weeks long, if it started in mid-August it would end at the start of October.

I like the idea in concept of a 4 year cycle. It would change the dynamic of the internationals an vary it up. Just confused by the 6N's and TRC part.

i guess that where the RC and 6N are a little different, you only play each on there once a year, keeps some rarity about it...we generally play at least twice and some three times with the Bledisloe...every year and so there an be a certain...repetitive nature...playing it less often with a bigger variety in between years could add some spice

 

[Reiser99]

i guess that where the RC and 6N are a little different, you only play each on there once a year, keeps some rarity about it...we generally play at least twice and some three times with the Bledisloe...every year and so there an be a certain...repetitive nature...playing it less often with a bigger variety in between years could add some spice

I get that, I'm just confused on Higgik's proposal as my interpretation is you spend August to November with straight internationals. August-September is 6N's + TRC and the September/October is the Autumn Internationals.

My view would be to have a year that looks roughly like one of these two.

Calendar 1:
February-April - Start of the season + 6N's and Rugby Championship (Players are then rested)
May-August - Regular rugby season
September-November - End of the season + Higgik's 4 yearly cycle Internationals
December-January - Break

Calendar 2:
September-November - Start of the season + Higgik's 4 yearly cycle Internationals
December-March - Regular rugby season
April-June - End of the season + 6N's and Rugby Championship.
July-August - Break

Obviously the calendars are very general, but that's the basic structure and it depends on where you want the break and who would get winter off and who would get summer.

I do have another question for Higgik though. When the Lions tour is on, they only play 1 country. Would the other countries have a 3 year break or would they play some games? Personally I would see it as an opportunity to have the T1 teams host T2 teams with whoever is playing the lions having a break, so that the T2 teams have a specific opportunity to play T1 teams outside of competitions/qualifying.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I get that, I'm just confused on Higgik's proposal as my interpretation is you spend August to November with straight internationals. August-September is 6N's + TRC and the September/October is the Autumn Internationals.

My view would be to have a year that looks roughly like one of these two.

Calendar 1:
February-April - Start of the season + 6N's and Rugby Championship (Players are then rested)
May-August - Regular rugby season
September-November - End of the season + Higgik's 4 yearly cycle Internationals
December-January - Break

Calendar 2:
September-November - Start of the season + Higgik's 4 yearly cycle Internationals
December-March - Regular rugby season
April-June - End of the season + 6N's and Rugby Championship.
July-August - Break

Obviously the calendars are very general, but that's the basic structure and it depends on where you want the break and who would get winter off and who would get summer.

I do have another question for Higgik though. When the Lions tour is on, they only play 1 country. Would the other countries have a 3 year break or would they play some games? Personally I would see it as an opportunity to have the T1 teams host T2 teams with whoever is playing the lions having a break, so that the T2 teams have a specific opportunity to play T1 teams outside of competitions/qualifying.

Just remember that the climate differs in the SH and the NH. November for instance will be brutal for teams coming to South Africa, as it's then summer here, and we get tempertures over 30 degrees celsius. Plus in the highveld it's rain season, and that generally includes lightning storms.

 

[Reiser99]

Just remember that the climate differs in the SH and the NH. November for instance will be brutal for teams coming to South Africa, as it's then summer here, and we get tempertures over 30 degrees celsius. Plus in the highveld it's rain season, and that generally includes lightning storms.

Yeah this is part of the problem with a global season. I was more trying to highlight how a global season might work under Higgik's and that the two big international seasons need to be separate. The exact dates would be more open to discussion.

 

[Which Tyler]

Yeah this is part of the problem with a global season. I was more trying to highlight how a global season might work under Higgik's and that the two big international seasons need to be separate. The exact dates would be more open to discussion.

Yup
There was a fundamental refusal to accept that different regions have different climates.
Any global season faced with a choice. Either you make Canada and the northern US play under 6' of snow, whilst the Saffers and Aussies play in 35* temperatures OR you make the Texans, French, Italians and Spanish etc play in 35* temperatures (which always got forgotten, it was only the SH weather patterns that seemed to matter)

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

An interesting enough article on the gap between Tiers 1 & 2. It seems to pull its punches a bit, but I'd agree with the overall sentiment of very cautious optimism.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50026631

 

[higgik]

I'm confused. I assume 6N's and TRC would be yearly as it's too profitable. Therefore they would be in August and then almost straight into the Autumn windows. When would there be a break? 6N's is 7 weeks long, if it started in mid-August it would end at the start of October.

I like the idea in concept of a 4 year cycle. It would change the dynamic of the internationals an vary it up. Just confused by the 6N's and TRC part.

Bruce Craig originally suggested the idea of 1 international window. The 6N would be reduced to 6 weeks with 1 week off before the next international window.
With regard to Lions, yes the other T1 would play T2 teams, so you could have Argentina playing Italy and Spain in a Latin Cup. SA could host Netherlands and Germany etc.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Just to give you guys feedback.

Scotland and Georgia will be touring to SA next year for the June internationals
https://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Springboks/springboks-to-host-scotland-georgia-in-2020-20191120

The world champions will play two Tests against the Scots - on July 4 and 11 - before facing Georgia the following weekend on July 18.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Just to give you guys feedback.

Scotland and Georgia will be touring to SA next year for the June internationals
https://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Springboks/springboks-to-host-scotland-georgia-in-2020-20191120

that's pretty cool for Georgia

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Just to give you guys feedback.

Scotland and Georgia will be touring to SA next year for the June internationals
https://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Springboks/springboks-to-host-scotland-georgia-in-2020-20191120

Yeah, its great that we are hosting Georgia. I suppose we should expect a bit of a blow out but Georgia won't get better against the likes of us, especially at home, if never given the exposure.

Also the perfect opportunity to blood new faces, continue to build depth, test new combinations and tactics going forward. I think everyone is still on a high after the RWC and a 'soft' start would suit us best from a mentality POV and looking at B&I Lions 2021 as a target to peak towards.