[TRF World XV] Head Coach

Discussion in 'General Rugby Union' started by big ginger 8, Apr 16, 2014.

?

Who's the best head coach?

  1. Joe Schmidt

    8 vote(s)
    21.6%
  2. Steve Hansen

    4 vote(s)
    10.8%
  3. Heyneke Meyer

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Sir Ian McGeechan

    2 vote(s)
    5.4%
  5. Wazza G

    3 vote(s)
    8.1%
  6. Graham Henry

    10 vote(s)
    27.0%
  7. Jake White

    6 vote(s)
    16.2%
  8. Stuart Lancaster

    2 vote(s)
    5.4%
  9. Guy Noves

    1 vote(s)
    2.7%
  10. Ewen McKenzie

    1 vote(s)
    2.7%
  1. Big Ewis

    Big Ewis BANNED!!!

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2011
    Messages:
    10,575
    Location:
    Draguignan, Var
    Country Flag:

    France

    Club or Nation:

    Toulon

    always the same debate in sports...winning something, or you're nothing.
    Is Stuart Lancaster a lesser coach because Wales decided to win a Grand Slam, another consecutive title and then Ireland ? No he isn't, and I'll let you ponder what this implies on a larger scale by induction.
    You can't hold one man, Vern Cotter here, responsible for a team's (Clermont) tumbles. Cotter's ASM Clermont won the 'bouclier de Brennus' once, which is already big as you mentioned. But a team isn't alone in grasping its destiny, there are all the other teams, the environment. It's good enough they made it to the European Cup final last year, if they were such chokers they wouldn't have made it that far with European giants all around.

    He must be considered here. Oh and since this is the thread to make such a comment: NZ coaches are the best.

    Also, in stead of Guy Noves, I think Fabien Galthié (Montpellier) deserves the nod. He's coaching the top team in all of the Top 14, a league as we all know FILLED with fierce internationals and tough teams, and they're not as loaded as other sides about. In retrospect, being no.1 makes them higher ranked than Toulouse by far, but also than Clermont, Toulon, Racing, Paris etc...
     
  2. Forum Ad Advertisement

  3. TheSaffycen

    TheSaffycen First XV

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2014
    Messages:
    2,735
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    England

    I never said he was nothing, I never said he was a bad coach, he is a very good coach. But looking at what he has available to him he should have won more, the Lancaster comment is a completely different kettle of fish, a club coach gets more time with his players and can pick from anyone in the world to get, Lancaster has to pick from a pool of players and then gets them together a couple times a year. Lancaster has done far more than Cotter has in a smaller amount of time. England a greater than the sum of their parts, Clermont are very good but have not lived up too potential.

    When I say chokers I mean a team that gets to the end of the season, then manages to under perform everytime. Clermont on paper have possibly the best team in Europe, Cotter has been there since 2006, he has won the top 14 once. They've won 1 out of how many finals ? 5 ? that isn't including quarters and semis that they failed in ! How is that not choking ?
     
  4. Big Ewis

    Big Ewis BANNED!!!

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2011
    Messages:
    10,575
    Location:
    Draguignan, Var
    Country Flag:

    France

    Club or Nation:

    Toulon

    I disagree with this. You can't just say Lancaster has done far more than Cotter has just under pretext he spends relatively little time with the team he coaches. Coaching quality isn't measured by a time spent with team/results ratio. If Lancaster had more time, maybe he'd get the same results, and Cotter less time the same results; the point is they both are good coaches, have both fully fulfilled their plans and seen it established and ripe, and their schemes work as they win games against big teams, both in their respective environment.

    But you can't just say "Lancaster has done more, or even 'done far more' ".

    And about England playing well in unison, they certainly do. In fact, just last year we couldn't pick one guy who'd make the World XV or even all that close from England and yet they were the best team out of Europe. But just like the argument in favor of the Boudjelal army in Toulon Var, money gets you only so much, team sports are dominated by he who brings a team together and brings them together well. Clermont are not an army of mercenaries. They might have good players, but many many teams in Europe have "good players", and those alone won't get you much if you can't oil the machine properly and play good rugby in every aspect of the game, which Clermont does.
    Just look at when France plays lately: they've got some of Fofana, Kayser, Domingo, Debaty, Parra but all those don't play NEARLY as well when in bleus as when in yellow.

    As for the choking thing, perhaps...I only accept the term of choking when a team is expected to win, i.e. comprehensively good enough to rise above the adversity of matchups.
    But winning the Top 14 is one heck of an endeavor. It's not like Prem or Rabo where the top 2 teams beat everybody else. Just look at this table, the current as of today:
    [TABLE="class: statstab, width: 100%"]
    <tbody>[TR="class: infoboxheadlite"]
    [TH] [/TH]
    [TH="class: textcenter"]Pts[/TH]
    [TH="class: textcenter"]J[/TH]
    [TH="class: textcenter"]G[/TH]
    [TH="class: textcenter"]N[/TH]
    [TH="class: textcenter"]P[/TH]
    [TH="class: textcenter"]p[/TH]
    [TH="class: textcenter"]c[/TH]
    [TH="class: textcenter"]+/-[/TH]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: altrow , textcenter"]
    [TD]1[/TD]
    [TD]Montypellier
    [/TD]
    [TD]70[/TD]
    [TD]24[/TD]
    [TD]14[/TD]
    [TD]1[/TD]
    [TD]9[/TD]
    [TD]611[/TD]
    [TD]493[/TD]
    [TD]118[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: textcenter"]
    [TD]2[/TD]
    [TD]Rugby Club Toulonnais
    [/TD]
    [TD]69[/TD]
    [TD]24[/TD]
    [TD]14[/TD]
    [TD]1[/TD]
    [TD]9[/TD]
    [TD]597[/TD]
    [TD]420[/TD]
    [TD]177[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: altrow , textcenter"]
    [TD]3[/TD]
    [TD]ASM Clermont
    [/TD]
    [TD]69[/TD]
    [TD]24[/TD]
    [TD]14[/TD]
    [TD]1[/TD]
    [TD]9[/TD]
    [TD]628[/TD]
    [TD]456[/TD]
    [TD]172[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: textcenter"]
    [TD]4[/TD]
    [TD]Racing Métro 92
    [/TD]
    [TD]65[/TD]
    [TD]24[/TD]
    [TD]14[/TD]
    [TD]2[/TD]
    [TD]8[/TD]
    [TD]427[/TD]
    [TD]398[/TD]
    [TD]29[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: altrow , textcenter"]
    [TD]5[/TD]
    [TD]Stade Toulousain
    [/TD]
    [TD]62[/TD]
    [TD]24[/TD]
    [TD]12[/TD]
    [TD]1[/TD]
    [TD]11[/TD]
    [TD]491[/TD]
    [TD]415[/TD]
    [TD]76[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: textcenter"]
    [TD]6[/TD]
    [TD]Castres Olympique
    [/TD]
    [TD]62[/TD]
    [TD]24[/TD]
    [TD]12[/TD]
    [TD]2[/TD]
    [TD]10[/TD]
    [TD]532[/TD]
    [TD]450[/TD]
    [TD]82[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: altrow , textcenter"]
    [TD]7[/TD]
    [TD]Union Bordeaux-Bègles
    [/TD]
    [TD]59[/TD]
    [TD]24[/TD]
    [TD]12[/TD]
    [TD]0[/TD]
    [TD]12[/TD]
    [TD]552[/TD]
    [TD]516[/TD]
    [TD]36[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: textcenter"]
    [TD]8[/TD]
    [TD]Stade Fran-macon
    [/TD]
    [TD]59[/TD]
    [TD]24[/TD]
    [TD]13[/TD]
    [TD]1[/TD]
    [TD]10[/TD]
    [TD]477[/TD]
    [TD]456[/TD]
    [TD]21[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: altrow , textcenter"]
    [TD]9[/TD]
    [TD]CA Brive-Corrèze
    [/TD]
    [TD]56[/TD]
    [TD]24[/TD]
    [TD]10[/TD]
    [TD]2[/TD]
    [TD]12[/TD]
    [TD]441[/TD]
    [TD]440[/TD]
    [TD]1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: textcenter"]
    [TD]10[/TD]
    [TD]Grenoble
    [/TD]
    [TD]51[/TD]
    [TD]24[/TD]
    [TD]11[/TD]
    [TD]1[/TD]
    [TD]12[/TD]
    [TD]436[/TD]
    [TD]566[/TD]
    [TD]-130[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: altrow , textcenter"]
    [TD]11[/TD]
    [TD]Perpignan
    [/TD]
    [TD]50[/TD]
    [TD]24[/TD]
    [TD]10[/TD]
    [TD]1[/TD]
    [TD]13[/TD]
    [TD]433[/TD]
    [TD]522[/TD]
    [TD]-89[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: textcenter"]
    [TD]12[/TD]
    [TD]Aviron Bayonnais
    [/TD]
    [TD]48[/TD]
    [TD]24[/TD]
    [TD]10[/TD]
    [TD]0[/TD]
    [TD]14[/TD]
    [TD]380[/TD]
    [TD]515[/TD]
    [TD]-135[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: altrow , textcenter"]
    [TD]13[/TD]
    [TD]Oyonnax
    [/TD]
    [TD]48[/TD]
    [TD]24[/TD]
    [TD]11[/TD]
    [TD]0[/TD]
    [TD]13[/TD]
    [TD]420[/TD]
    [TD]524[/TD]
    [TD]-104[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: textcenter"]
    [TD]14[/TD]
    [TD]Biarritz Olympique
    [/TD]
    [TD]26[/TD]
    [TD]24[/TD]
    [TD]4[/TD]
    [TD]1[/TD]
    [TD]19[/TD]
    [TD]335[/TD]
    [TD]589[/TD]
    [TD]-254
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    </tbody>[/TABLE]

    The top teams have 9 losses. Last year, Toulon was almost certain to win it all, if not them then Clermont for sure for sure for sure, and BAM a third challenger appears and beats em both. The former two didn't choke, they were just beaten by a better team, Castres were awesome in those two games.

    And anyways, Clermont's choking has nothing to do with the headcoach, it's the players that take the blame. Cotter prepared them as best he could, but at the end of the day it's the players who play on the field.
     
  5. TheSaffycen

    TheSaffycen First XV

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2014
    Messages:
    2,735
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    England

    No my point with Lancaster is that he has to work within certain parameters, Cotter can do what he wants and get who he wants. So comparing them is void in my opinion, but if we are comparing them, Lancaster has turned England from a complete laughing stock into a team that could win the world cup. He has also had to blood in youngsters and untried combinations, yet he has managed to come 2nd in every 6 nations and beat every team he's faced apart from South Africa. Cotter plays great rugby and has done okay, but I don't see Connor O'Shea being mentioned and he plays better rugby, has a smaller budget, and has won more ! Cotter is a good coach, possibly great, but he is managing a team that on paper is better than the teams he is losing too. You can say that it's the players fault, and it is to a degree, but watch the Heineken Cup final last year and he was out thought by Laporte, who managed to get his team to play out of their skin and nullify Clermont's game plan, he hasn't had the exactly same players for 5 finals so it is either a MASSIVE COINCEDENCE that he has like a 1-5 finals record or he doesn't know how to set out a team to win a one off game. A 16.6% win percentage in finals kind of says to me he could be the problem.

    I can. And I did.
     
  6. TRF_Peat

    TRF_Peat Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    Messages:
    10,086
    Location:
    London
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    Ulster

    Eh. I sometimes feel the England transition is overtalked. The Six Nations was a low point, yeah, but he took a side that had just won the Six Nations by winning 4 games and turned it into side that loses the Six Nations by winning 4 games. Uhm. Viva le progress?

    That said - if we're talking about domestic rugby and bringing in coaches on their record there - Schmidt's recent record is virtually unrivalled. And Dave Rennie needs to be part of the discussion.
     
  7. FrenchFan

    FrenchFan First XV

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Messages:
    2,239
    Location:
    Ville rose
    Country Flag:

    France

    Club or Nation:

    Toulouse

    don't bother. In Europe with 10 league titles & 4 HCup its Guy Noves. Can't argue agst silverware.
     
  8. gaston le gaff

    gaston le gaff First XV

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2012
    Messages:
    3,451
    Location:
    St Jean de Crieulon, 55kms north of Montpellier
    Country Flag:

    France

    Club or Nation:

    Montpellier

    Although i think Noves is nearing the end of an incredible career, if you want to list silverware as the one solid reason to pick one guy to coach a World XV he is your man. Noves has never coached Internationally but it is not for the want of asking by the FFR, but that has always fallen on deaf ears, but winning silverware as mentioned above he is miles ahead of anyone so the choice is obvious!!!!!!!!!!
     
  9. Jaguares

    Jaguares First XV

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2012
    Messages:
    4,966
    Country Flag:

    Argentina

    Club or Nation:

    Argentina

    And what about Dave Rennie???! For me, right now, he's the best head coach around the world. Chiefs finished in tenth place in the Season 2011 with only 40 points and they finished in tenth place too in the Season 2010 with only 26 points.

    He was hired by Chiefs in 2012, and the team was champion 2 times in Super Rugby, Season 2012 and 2013. Coincidence???? Many said that he won the 2012 season by having top class players such as: Sonny Bill Williams but last year he lost some big players and he still won the Super Rugby Season.

    I refuse to vote until you put the best head coach in the list:

    [​IMG]

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2014
  10. TheSaffycen

    TheSaffycen First XV

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2014
    Messages:
    2,735
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    England

    In fairness to Lancaster Wales had their best 2 years in ages, and we should have won it this year but had a poor first game. I do agree he hasn't turned us into the best team in the world but he has turned us into a team that can challenge for championships, he did also win the triple crown which we haven't done for years. We are a better team than the one Johnson left us with, time will tell next year with the next world cup.
     
  11. FrenchFan

    FrenchFan First XV

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Messages:
    2,239
    Location:
    Ville rose
    Country Flag:

    France

    Club or Nation:

    Toulouse

    no coach in Europe comes anywhere close to Noves for silverware. Better leave him out of any poll.

    Noves knows the real strength is with the clubs & stays with them. That's why he will never coach the national team. What a waste of his time that would be.

    the national side is a pimple on his arse. And he sits on it every day.
     
  12. TRF_Peat

    TRF_Peat Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    Messages:
    10,086
    Location:
    London
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    Ulster

    We already were a team that could challenge for Championships.

    We are probably a better team. We should be. We have a better standard of player after all. I don't think Lancaster can claim the credit for Joe Launchbury being 22 rather than 20. There's a lot of players who've come through or matured since the end of the Johnson reign and while Lancaster played a biggish role in some, such as plucking Tom Youngs out, but you can probably more to more players who've really lost form at international level under him - particularly in the backs.

    I don't want to get uber critical or ought as that's not merited but I really don't think he's merited a mention as best Head Coach either. His achievements are just nowhere near.
     
  13. psychic duck

    psychic duck International

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2011
    Messages:
    5,095
    Location:
    London
    Especially as it shouldn't be forgotten along with Leinster, that he was the Clermont backs coach when they were at their peak and won the Top 14, they are still good obviously, but not quite the same since he left.
     
  14. TheSaffycen

    TheSaffycen First XV

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2014
    Messages:
    2,735
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    England

    He can take credit for picking him though, he looked at Launchbury at 20 and said he will be in my team and has helped mould him into the player he is today. He has now developed, with Rowntree, a pack that can rival any and he is starting to create a good attacking game. And when I say challenge for championships I mean World Cups as well as 6 nations, we where **** poor at the last world cup and he pretty much started from scratch.
    Look at the team that we put out against France - that team could challenge 6 nations or world cups ? we won 1 and we were battered by Ireland in it.
    Foden, Ashton, Tuilagi, Flood, Cueto, Wilkinson, Youngs, Stevens, Thompson, Cole, Deacon, Palmer, Croft, Moody, Easter.
    Lancaster against Italy
    Brown, Nowell, Burrell, twelvetrees, May, Farrell, Care, Vunipola, Hartley, Wilson, Launchbury, Lawes, Wood, Robshaw, Morgan
    He has brought through so many players, and certain players have improved- Lawes, Launchbury, Robshaw, Twelvetrees, Brown, Hartley, Farrell
    Players who have gone faded away - Ashton, Youngs, who else ?

    EDIT just thought I would add I don't think he is the best coach but just saying he is very good.
     
  15. TRF_Peat

    TRF_Peat Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    Messages:
    10,086
    Location:
    London
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    Ulster

    Any idiot could look at Launchbury aged 20 and work out they wanted him in the senior team. We all knew he was going to be an international and that is primarily and hugely to Wasps' credit - and not Lancaster's.

    The World Cup was a flustercluck where everything went wrong at once. It's not particularly to Johnson's credit but it's not the measure of the team. Could the team have challenged more? Yeah, I think so, we all expected more.

    Just because the team is better doesn't mean Lancaster is a better coach. It potentially means he's simply got a better standard of player available. Nowell, Burrell, Twelvetrees, May, Farrell, Vunipola, Launchbury, Morgan - all weren't pushing for inclusion at that point. Brown was a distance off as well while Lawes was very injury prone. And what has Lancaster lost? Thompson finished his career a better player than Hartley, so that's a loss (and no I don't think he's improved). Moody was too injury prone, Easter was never top standard - but who did you replace him with back then? Stevens, Deacon, Palmer, god in heaven - if Lancaster can't get his team working better he really is shat.

    Lancaster inherited a fair bunch of players - Foden, Tuilagi, Cole, Croft, Wood, Lawes, Flood, Youngs, Ashton (was good then) and a few more besides. Then he got a whole bunch more of really talented young players to supplement them. The result? No advance on trophies or 6N position and a pretty fluky victory on NZ.

    I want to see some trophies - or wins down South - before I get big on him. Very good? Hmm.
     
  16. TheSaffycen

    TheSaffycen First XV

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2014
    Messages:
    2,735
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    England

    Oh I do love that, if any player has become good or got better it is the club not Lancaster, anyone who has gone down hill well that's Lancasters fault. You can't have it both ways- he cant just be responsible for all the bad things and the good things have nothing to do with him.

    We beat New Zealand and lost by 8 points too them next time around, I don't really know how fluky that is, I just think that he has done pretty well against them. We were a bounce of a ball away from winning the grand slam, he still has too select the players and he has selected some poor players (Botha, Johnson, Strettle) but has also selected lots of young players and made some great decisions, Robshaw as captain, Parling coming in. With winning down south, he had the tour against South Africa, lost the first 2 then he drew the last one. Not too bad considering that he hadn't been in charge a year, how many teams go down to Joburg and actually get a result.
     
  17. ragerancher

    ragerancher International

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2011
    Messages:
    5,159
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    Bath

    Ultimately the tests against NZ and hopefully a relatively injury free 6N will decide how good Lancaster has been. Until then I can't seem him being in contention. One thing he definitely needs credit for is changing the attitude and perception of the England team. Only someone stuck in the past can realistically call any of the England team or staff "arrogant". Such accusations are very hollow now and that is definitely down to Lancaster.
     
  18. TRF_Olyy

    TRF_Olyy English Arrogance

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2008
    Messages:
    100,000,440
    Location:
    Lichfield(ish), UK
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    Sale

    Such an arrogant post, ragerancher.
     
  19. Big Ewis

    Big Ewis BANNED!!!

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2011
    Messages:
    10,575
    Location:
    Draguignan, Var
    Country Flag:

    France

    Club or Nation:

    Toulon

    I don't know...you may have a point but I think he's an amazing coach, gets results, and although Clermont have not been all-dominating with titles per se, I'm not sure we can just confidently blame the coach. You're talking as if Clermont had gods throughout the XV and every other team was mediocre. You don't just win 2-3 H Cups in a row, or 3-4 Top 14 titles. I think it's too easy and not conclusive enough to think that, although again you may be right...
    But he is a great coach nonetheless, and I'm ready to put my word on the line as he'll be joining a national side in disarray and I bet he makes them better. Like, not 6N winning good obviously, but a good difference.

    But again, I go for Hansen, and Schmidt ain't far behind if not just as good. He might be better, but I got the fat Hansen man.
     
  20. lynam1104

    lynam1104 First XV

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2009
    Messages:
    3,231
    Location:
    Singapore
    Country Flag:

    Ireland

    Club or Nation:

    Leinster

    Lancaster dropped Ashton, that gets him points in my book.
     
  21. TheSaffycen

    TheSaffycen First XV

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2014
    Messages:
    2,735
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    England

    I do concede that it is naïve to expect them to win every final, but look at someone like Schmidt or Cockerill they consistently have silverware in the cabinet. They do/did manage the best teams in the league but they still had to win the tournaments they were in. With the Scotland team I think he will make them the most competitive Scottish team for 10 years, if he can put the same influence on style of play as he has with Clermont then they will beat a lot of teams, and be competitive against the big boys. I think that he is seeing this as a way into the All Blacks job.
     
Enjoyed this thread? Register to post your reply - click here!

Share This Page

-->