Trouble brewing

[smartcooky]

Ah so Boujadall is wrong to say that international players who play for his club cannot play for their countries. But international teams are ok not to select his players to play for their international teams!

No double standards there then!!!!

Hang on there Tony. Its not a double standard at all. Lets say I'm your employer. I tell you that when you are on holiday, you are not allow to play rugby for Team "A". That is illegal, I cannot do that. This is not the same as Team "A" selectors telling you that if you work for smartcooky, they are no going to select you.

On the one hand you are talking about a team owner/manager/official who states he's going to sack players who play for their country, when he is under a legal obligation to release them; an obligation that he signs up to by virtue of owning/managing/being an official in a Rugby Body that owes its existence to the game.

On the other hand, you have National Unions that have hundreds of professional players to choose from, and are under no legal obligation to choose any particular player, and are entitled to set their own selection criteria

These two situations are apples and oranges.... they are not at all comparable.



Globally, the game of rugby lives and dies by the state of the international game. Most rugby supporters from countries other than France don't give a fat rat's arse about the Top 14, and wouldn't shed a single bloody tear if the whole shebang was to terminate tomorrow (ditto Super Rugby outside of NZ/AUS/SA, Aviva Prem outside of England)

 

[TRF_heineken]

Ah so Boujadall is wrong to say that international players who play for his club cannot play for their countries. But international teams are ok not to select his players to play for their international teams!

No double standards there then!!!!

Listen I agree with @FREnch Fan and @ gaston Le gaff but there is some sort of double standards here surely!!!

Yes he is.

Hang on there Tony. Its not a double standard at all. Lets say I'm your employer. I tell you that when you are on holiday, you are not allow to play rugby for Team "A". That is illegal, I cannot do that. This is not the same as Team "A" selectors telling you that if you work for smartcooky, they are no going to select you.

On the one hand you are talking about a team owner/manager/official who states he's going to sack players who play for their country, when he is under a legal obligation to release them; an obligation that he signs up to by virtue of owning/managing/being an official in a Rugby Body that owes its existence to the game.

On the other hand, you have National Unions that have hundreds of professional players to choose from, and are under no legal obligation to choose any particular player, and are entitled to set their own selection criteria

These two situations are apples and oranges.... they are not at all comparable.



Globally, the game of rugby lives and dies by the state of the international game. Most rugby supporters from countries other than France don't give a fat rat's arse about the Top 14, and wouldn't shed a single bloody tear if the whole shebang was to terminate tomorrow (ditto Super Rugby outside of NZ/AUS/SA, Aviva Prem outside of England)

Ditto!

The thing is, Boudjellal and many other clubs lure players to their clubs with a dangling money carrot above their heads. But playing for your country is a whole different scenario, and cannot be compared to club rugby (As much as you frenchies try to do).

International Rugby reaches a far bigger audience than club rugby, the passion and everything else that goes along with it also makes it incomparable to club rugby. And I've never heard an international player say that club rugby is more intense than international rugby.

International coaches have their own guidelines when selecting a team. And that is because they have so many players to choose from. Toulon is only allowed to have a squad of X amount of players for the season. Whereas an international coach can select each and every player that is eligible to play for their country within the guidelines set out.

Mourad's claims are purely a financial remark, and as you might have realised by now, outside of France, Rugby is more than just about the money.

 

[gaston le gaff]

Guys this is a storm in a tea cup do not make it to be something it is not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!one article and everyone goes AWOL this is common Boujellal practice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[FrenchFan]

[TEXTAREA]REGULATION 9. AVAILABILITY OF PLAYERS
9.3 No Union, Association, Rugby Body or Club whether by contract, conduct or otherwise may inhibit, prevent, discourage, disincentivise or render unavailable any Player from selection, attendance and appearance in a National Representative Team or National Squad session when such request for selection, attendance and appearance is made in accordance with the provisions of this Regulation 9. Any agreement and/or arrangement between a Player and a Rugby Body or Club or between a Union or an Association and a Rugby Body or Club (and/or any proposal made and/or attempted to be made howsoever communicated) which is contrary to this Regulation 9.3 is prohibited, including, but not limited to any agreement and/or arrangement and/or proposal pursuant to which a Player is (or would be) unable to exercise the right to play for a Union.[/TEXTAREA]

Actually, after reading Regulation 9, can we safely assume no T14 club has ever ever ever done anything likely to 'discourage, disincentivise or render unavailable any Player from selection'?

who would believe that?!

It's been reported in French rugby media before how more than a few foreign internationals from Tier 2 nations in particular have been talked out of a few test games. If anyone believes it's never happened, they're in denial or just not aware of the reality of club rugby here (but that's ok ignorance is legal).

look at Toulouse recent reaction and language in their statement over Johnston who wanted resume his int career even for one test.

I don't remember our media reporting on how either FFr or IRB actually took action against the big bad clubs. I must have missed it. Has any T14 club ever been exposed?

I wonder if FFr and IRB have the guts to take on any big club over this.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Actually, after reading Regulation 9, can we safely assume no T14 club has ever ever ever done anything likely to 'discourage, disincentivise or render unavailable any Player from selection'?

who would believe that?!

It's been reported in French rugby media before how more than a few foreign internationals from Tier 2 nations in particular have been talked out of a few test games. If anyone believes it's never happened, they're in denial or just not aware of the reality of club rugby here (but that's ok ignorance is legal).

look at Toulouse recent reaction and language in their statement over Johnston who wanted resume his int career even for one test.

I don't remember our media reporting on how either FFr or IRB actually took action against the big bad clubs. I must have missed it. Has any T14 club ever been exposed?

I wonder if FFr and IRB have the guts to take on any big club over this.

Well, if their owners are going to keep on opening their big mouths, then it is inevitable that it could/will happen.

You and Gaston might see this as a storm in a teacup, but this is going to become a bigger issue when remarks like this continues. If the IRB/WR sanctions a club, the ramifications could be severe. Top players might even have a release clause in their contracts, and I bet that there will be plenty of teams that will be willing to take those stars over. Duane Vermeulen would be welcomed with open arms into any Super Rugby SA team.

 

[Peat]

The remarks are a storm in a teacup.

The situation however is going to come to a head sooner or later - mightn't be our man in Toulon pulling the trigger, but his comments do pull at the fault lines. After all, why should French clubs pay for players who miss the most important games?

Sooner or later, schedule clash is going to lead to some serious rows. French clubs encouraging Tier 2 Internationals to stay at home? I *really* hate to say it, but it seems no one important cares. But when Tier 1 Internationals are regularly being forced to pick, that's when the potential for a fight goes up. And, even if Boujellal doesn't do anything this summer, eventually someone will...

 

[FrenchFan]

We get Mourad in the media every week. He is bending everyone's ears continually. It's ego driven not rugby. Truth is 99.9% of fans here don't give a rat's arse about what he says. People in Toulouse or Paris just don't listen to him. The vast majority hates his guts anyway and he has alienated the rugby establishment. Never mind the rivalry and jealousy with his club!!

He has done a remarkable job with his club. But he is an egotistical wind-up merchant, he needs the media coverage, it's his drugs. But there's a few that fall for it every time...

Like I said if he was to block a player he would be shooting himself a very big bullet. So let him talk. No need to take the high moral ground and start the lectures every time

And don't worry about the rest of us no one has the monopoly of passion for intl rugby. It wasn't SA or SH-stamped last time I checked...

 

[FrenchFan]

The thing is, Boudjellal and many other clubs lure players to their clubs with a dangling money carrot above their heads. But playing for your country is a whole different scenario, and cannot be compared to club rugby (As much as you frenchies try to do).

International Rugby reaches a far bigger audience than club rugby, the passion and everything else that goes along with it also makes it incomparable to club rugby. And I've never heard an international player say that club rugby is more intense than international rugby.

You're reading this the wrong way again Heineken.

The French fans have turned en masse for their domestic rugby (all TV viewership and attendance numbers are UP) here because it fills their rugby calendar in a way les Bleus don't. Not because as you state they think club rugby is somehow superior in standard to intl rugby. Never met either a player who thinks our club rugby is superior or more intense to intl rugby!

It's just that with an average of 10 to 12 games per season the national team doesn't meet the demand there is in this country for rugby. The 6N is very popular here. But there's only 5 games to watch for French fans. Many only watch the 3 games v England Wales Ireland. And let's face it people's patience with les bleus poor performance is running thin. So it's no surprise they are turning to club rugby.

Compared with the feast of rugby we get domestically with 2 pro leagues (let's not forget ProD2) and the European CCup, it's easy to see why the balance leans in favour of club rugby.

 

[smartcooky]

Why should French clubs pay for players who miss the most important games?

That isn't what Boujellal is saying. He is threatening to sack players who play for their countries during the international tours to the SH at the end of the 2015/16 season. That is June 11-25, 2016,

England to Australia
Wales to New Zealand
Ireland to South Africa
France to Argentina

I don't know of any Club matches in France scheduled for those three weekends.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

That isn't what Boujellal is saying. He is threatening to sack players who play for their countries during the international tours to the SH at the end of the 2015/16 season. That is June 11-25, 2016,

England to Australia
Wales to New Zealand
Ireland to South Africa
France to Argentina

I don't know of any Club matches in France scheduled for those three weekends.

Exactly. Well put (as usual), Cooky.

A bit off topic but I can't wait for next year's June series with Ireland coming in. We might meet in the RWC before then but it'd be good to have a go on home soil.

 

[valley commando]

Perhaps countries wanting players to play/tour outside of any agreed international window should pay the club the portion of wage due in that time, mind you as a player would you not rather play in the top 14 final than tour a SH country, it would be of course completely different were it a WC or Lions tour they were missing out on.
Also after WC year would it not be better from a player welfare point to not have any summer tours next year, or are our respective unions only concerned with income from these tours ?

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

That all depends on how much you value test rugby and reresenting your country as opposed to club rugby of course.

Also, why should a national union dish out money to get a player in that they

1) probably had massive input into developing to a point where they are test class.
2) have full right to that player (if he has made himself avaiable) as per existing governing body rules that the clubs are fully aware of when making offers and signing players.

I think if the clubs have issues then they should just not sign players who are likely to play test rugby or adjust their offers to 'build in' the costs of replacing those players in the games they'd not be available.
It's BS that national unions should conceivably pay for the availability of players they made into test players in the first place and where foreign clubs don't pay for that development when signing these players.

 

[gaston le gaff]

this is getting ridiculous, this story seems to hitting everywhere in the world by one place and thats France funny eh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! now i know where the saying comes from, "if you don't know make it up"

 

[nickdnz]

Perhaps countries wanting players to play/tour outside of any agreed international window should pay the club the portion of wage due in that time, mind you as a player would you not rather play in the top 14 final than tour a SH country, it would be of course completely different were it a WC or Lions tour they were missing out on.
Also after WC year would it not be better from a player welfare point to not have any summer tours next year, or are our respective unions only concerned with income from these tours ?

What...?

So Unions such as Georgia, Fiji, Tonga, Samoa, Romania etc, etc should be paying to use their players? That would surely do the global game good.

Maybe clubs should have to pay the Unions money for developing said players.

Again, those Summer tours will be three matches of the year. Why should Unions not play them - they'll be playing 30 odd games prior to the tours in the Top 14...there is already a reduced international calender this year in order to look after player welfare. There is a difference between playing devil's advocate, and playing the fool,

 

[gaston le gaff]

Quote Valley Commando....Also after WC year would it not be better from a player welfare point to not have any summer tours next year, or are our respective unions only concerned with income from these tours ?[/QUOTE]

As far as the players selected to play in this WORLD CUP, they will only play possibly as many as if they were not selected!!! and then they would have to get to the final which takes 7 games, the players selected will miss 7 TOP games, they will not have extensive travel as the players involved in the TOP 14 and they will have more rest periods, so if you count the 2 pre season games we play tomorrow v Aurillac and next thursday v Pau the world cup players will play less games, and there will not be many who play all 7 world cup games, even if France was to get to the final which i very much doubt. So personally i think summer tours are ok and we all know that French teams have too many games.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

this is getting ridiculous, this story seems to hitting everywhere in the world by one place and thats France funny eh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well.....yeah.
They don't want to be bad mouthing their league do they?

 

[FrenchFan]

The remarks are a storm in a teacup.

Sooner or later, schedule clash is going to lead to some serious rows. French clubs encouraging Tier 2 Internationals to stay at home? I *really* hate to say it, but it seems no one important cares. But when Tier 1 Internationals are regularly being forced to pick, that's when the potential for a fight goes up. And, even if Boujellal doesn't do anything this summer, eventually someone will...

This is the problem. It does raise the question over the Unions stance and action in relation to Regulation 9. It's very well to come up with regulations. However how much of it is actually being enforced in the big bad world of club rugby? Very little over here by the look of it.

Typically our own union will do the talk in the media. But I doubt they will walk the walk in a European court of law against a team of lawyers...

We're well past the potential for conflict over here. I can see more conflicts on the horizon and our clubs pulling their players out of selection like Clermont did with Lopez.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

This doesn't apply to French players, does it? Mad if it does.

 

[smartcooky]

This is the problem. It does raise the question over the Unions stance and action in relation to Regulation 9. It's very well to come up with regulations. However how much of it is actually being enforced in the big bad world of club rugby? Very little over here by the look of it.

Typically our own union will do the talk in the media. But I doubt they will walk the walk in a European court of law against a team of lawyers...

We're well past the potential for conflict over here. I can see more conflicts on the horizon and our clubs pulling their players out of selection like Clermont did with Lopez.

It has been known for some time that certain European clubs covertly pressure Tier 2 players to make themselves unavailable for international duty under pain of losing their jobs, and they are told that if they talk about it, that will lose them their job as well. This has been going on since the 1990's; the trouble is that knowing it is one thing, and proving it is quite another, and you have to prove it before you can enforce the regulations.

IMO, there can really only be one definitive, comprehensive answer to this and that is for WR to take control and create playing windows in the regulations for both Elite Domestic and International Rugby - no international rugby to be played in the elite domestic window, and no elite domestic rugby in the international window. Then create a third "elite rest" window (or perhaps two shorter elite rest windows) and no elite rugby at all to be played in those windows.

ALL matches in Elite Domestic competitions such as Super Rugby, Top 14, Aviva Premiership, ProD2, Pro12, ITM Cup and Currie Cup (including pre-season m,atches) must be played inside the appropriate defined window. If there are more matches than will fit (I suspect Top 14 and ProD2 would probably be the only one affected) then they have to take a leaf from NZRU's book and do what we do with the ITM Cup, where each team plays a match mid-week with a short turnaround so that the 10 rounds of the regular season can fit into 9 weeks. It works for the ITM Cup, so there is no reason whatsoever that it cannot work for any other competition. If any domestic competition wants to expand, they will have to do so within the constraints of their window.

 

[Tony Manx]

It has been known for some time that certain European clubs covertly pressure Tier 2 players to make themselves unavailable for international duty under pain of losing their jobs, and they are told that if they talk about it, that will lose them their job as well. This has been going on since the 1990's; the trouble is that knowing it is one thing, and proving it is quite another, and you have to prove it before you can enforce the regulations.

IMO, there can really only be one definitive, comprehensive answer to this and that is for WR to take control and create playing windows in the regulations for both Elite Domestic and International Rugby - no international rugby to be played in the elite domestic window, and no elite domestic rugby in the international window. Then create a third "elite rest" window (or perhaps two shorter elite rest windows) and no elite rugby at all to be played in those windows.

ALL matches in Elite Domestic competitions such as Super Rugby, Top 14, Aviva Premiership, ProD2, Pro12, ITM Cup and Currie Cup (including pre-season m,atches) must be played inside the appropriate defined window. If there are more matches than will fit (I suspect Top 14 and ProD2 would probably be the only one affected) then they have to take a leaf from NZRU's book and do what we do with the ITM Cup, where each team plays a match mid-week with a short turnaround so that the 10 rounds of the regular season can fit into 9 weeks. It works for the ITM Cup, so there is no reason whatsoever that it cannot work for any other competition. If any domestic competition wants to expand, they will have to do so within the constraints of their window.

Yeah like the French will accept that!!!

The Top 14 (and other club leagues in the NH where clubs are not mere springboards to the international team like in SH), is more important than the Internationals to many, many people