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Trouble in Wales?

Not a hope that Ruddock takes that job if he wasn't doing so bad in the AIL I don't think, it's not an attractive offer.
You're (very) probably right... but... there are some aspects that could encourage him to stay beyond the month.

I read a piece he wrote about his time coaching Swansea a few years back and i remember thinking that regardless of the '05 Grand Slam, it was his time with Swansea that Ruddock remembered as the fondest part of his career. There is also the fact that the Ospreys can't really get any worse right now, with injuries healing and internationals to come back... logic dictates that they will only improve (by how much is another question entirely).

Considering those two things, if Ruddock has a nose around and isn't 'too' put off by the chaos beneath the surface... he may well see it as an easy win. Take over a disaster of a side, implement some basic fundamentals while welcoming back many first-teamers and all of a sudden they start getting some wins again and Ruddock is the flavour of Welsh rugby again.

As I started my post though. you are probably right Alf.
 
You're (very) probably right... but... there are some aspects that could encourage him to stay beyond the month.

I read a piece he wrote about his time coaching Swansea a few years back and i remember thinking that regardless of the '05 Grand Slam, it was his time with Swansea that Ruddock remembered as the fondest part of his career. There is also the fact that the Ospreys can't really get any worse right now, with injuries healing and internationals to come back... logic dictates that they will only improve (by how much is another question entirely).

Considering those two things, if Ruddock has a nose around and isn't 'too' put off by the chaos beneath the surface... he may well see it as an easy win. Take over a disaster of a side, implement some basic fundamentals while welcoming back many first-teamers and all of a sudden he is the flavour of Welsh rugby again.

As I started my post though. you are probably right Alf.
I hope he does well, I like him and liked having a strong Ospreys in the league, even if they were mostly orange men and I rarely get on well with them...

I just don't see it being possible to do anything with the club rn.
 
I hope he does well, I like him and liked having a strong Ospreys in the league, even if they were mostly orange men and I rarely get on well with them...

I just don't see it being possible to do anything with the club rn.
Yep, they are a mess.

Really wouldn't be surprised if it's their last season what with how badly the WRU wants to tap North Wales. Would be a shame as far as the rich vein of talent that has emerged from Swansea, Bridgend, Neath and the surrounding towns though. If it does come to pass, the Blues would do well to treat Bridgend like a girl who's 'marriage-material'... court the **** out've them like.
 
Yep, they are a mess.

Really wouldn't be surprised if it's their last season what with how badly the WRU wants to tap North Wales. Would be a shame as far as the rich vein of talent that has emerged from Swansea, Bridgend, Neath and the surrounding towns though. If it does come to pass, the Blues would do well to treat Bridgend like a girl who's 'marriage-material'... court the **** out've them like.
Yep, Blues should take over all of Glamorgan, leaving Scarlets with Western Wales, including defectors from West Glamorgan.
Dragons take all of Gwent and open up North Wales for a new team.
 
Yep, Blues should take over all of Glamorgan, leaving Scarlets with Western Wales, including defectors from West Glamorgan.
Dragons take all of Gwent and open up North Wales for a new team.

I disagree. It should be: East Wales (Dragons-Blues hybrid), West Wales (Ospreys-Scarlets hybrid) and North Wales (basically RGC1404 upgraded to full pro status).
 
Is 3 regions enough to provide for the national side though?

This probably isn't an easy yes/no answer because it all depends on the quality underpinning the regional game. If we could have 3 highly competitive regions + a good semi professional league below which breeds regional ready players then this would probably be sufficient. The prem as it stands is nowhere near, but if by cutting a region an extra £milions a season could be ploughed into a streamlined premiership of say 9 sides (3 per region), then maybe the quality could be improved quickly to avoid a situation like Scotland where they struggle for numbers.
 
Simple answer, the ospreys should stand alone due to being the most successful. The wru allowing Cardiff who are the least successful to field region players in the Prince is disgusting, same with llanelli
 
Simple answer, the ospreys should stand alone due to being the most successful. The wru allowing Cardiff who are the least successful to field region players in the Prince is disgusting, same with llanelli
Most successful seven or eight years ago, Scarlets have been better the last few years. Doesn't matter a bit if they can't sort their finances out. Ofnthe four Welsh regions, I'd say the Scarlets are the ones with the best argument for still existing right now, while Cardiff despite not being great kinda have to exist really.

Really just thinking aloud because I don't know the answers at all, Welsh regional rugby is an absolute farce though right now.
 
Most successful seven or eight years ago, Scarlets have been better the last few years. Doesn't matter a bit if they can't sort their finances out. Ofnthe four Welsh regions, I'd say the Scarlets are the ones with the best argument for still existing right now, while Cardiff despite not being great kinda have to exist really.

Really just thinking aloud because I don't know the answers at all, Welsh regional rugby is an absolute farce though right now.
While I agree entirely... *cough* semi-final *cough* :cool:.
 
I disagree. It should be: East Wales (Dragons-Blues hybrid), West Wales (Ospreys-Scarlets hybrid) and North Wales (basically RGC1404 upgraded to full pro status).
It's a difficult thing to analyse really as, while our regions are frankly awful... their inception has been a major part in the upsurge of the national team (and that is the main objective here right?). Four regions give more potential Welsh players the opportunity to play competitive rugby and earn their chance to play for Wales... and therefore for me shouldn't be cut to three.

You only have to look at Scotland (2) and Argentina (1), who both have very competitive clubs (probably due to them not having many) but how do them competitive sides translate internationally... not well.

Ireland undoubtedly have the best balance and the first steps for Wales to follow their template would be to geographically map out the teams ie North, South, East and West. Then addressing the public's interest in the regional game is paramount. It's never going to be easy for a country like Wales (3 million people, 2 of which are huddled into a corridor along a motorway) but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.
 
It's a difficult thing to analyse really as, while our regions are frankly awful... their inception has been a major part in the upsurge of the national team (and that is the main objective here right?). Four regions give more potential Welsh players the opportunity to play competitive rugby and earn their chance to play for Wales... and therefore for me shouldn't be cut to three.

You only have to look at Scotland (2) and Argentina (1), who both have very competitive clubs (probably due to them not having many) but how do them competitive sides translate internationally... not well.

Ireland undoubtedly have the best balance and the first steps for Wales to follow their template would be to geographically map out the teams ie North, South, East and West. Then addressing the public's interest in the regional game is paramount. It's never going to be easy for a country like Wales (3 million people, 2 of which are huddled into a corridor along a motorway) but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.

Stereotypes notwithstanding about rugby being Wales' 'national sport' etc, Ireland have considerably more players than Wales do. In addition, their provinces are not only well spread out, but more crucially have real history and tradition behind them. (The Interpro Championship etc).

Three regions would be the right balance between being competitive in themselves on the one hand, and supplying the national side with lots of players on the other.
 
It's a difficult thing to analyse really as, while our regions are frankly awful... their inception has been a major part in the upsurge of the national team (and that is the main objective here right?). Four regions give more potential Welsh players the opportunity to play competitive rugby and earn their chance to play for Wales... and therefore for me shouldn't be cut to three.

You only have to look at Scotland (2) and Argentina (1), who both have very competitive clubs (probably due to them not having many) but how do them competitive sides translate internationally... not well.

Ireland undoubtedly have the best balance and the first steps for Wales to follow their template would be to geographically map out the teams ie North, South, East and West. Then addressing the public's interest in the regional game is paramount. It's never going to be easy for a country like Wales (3 million people, 2 of which are huddled into a corridor along a motorway) but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.

this makes no sense to me. why do countries need to meticulously manage every player in the country if they want to succeed? South Africa hardly interferes with the activities of the regional sides, and England has 12 teams going and Eddie Jones doesn't play pseudo manager with any of those clubs.

Shouldn't the goal be to produce a profitable entertainment product? Why focus on making winners 12 times a year when you can have winners 30 times a year. I don't think stronger clubs would hurt the national team either.
 
Ospreys today played well for the first twenty minutes (notwithstanding the sending off) and in most of the second-half. The second quarter killed it for them, and some of the tackling and defence were pathetic. That said, they should have been given a try at the end of the match for the BP - crap refereeing that. As for the other three Welsh teams, OK yes it's the Challenge Cup, but still: 14-man Dragons only narrowly lost at Worcester, Scarlets won at Bayonne (with some players still rested) and Cardiff thrashed Pau.
 
Three regions would be the right balance between being competitive in themselves on the one hand, and supplying the national side with lots of players on the other.

Maybe we should look at going at reducing down to 3 for the immediate future (all south wales based), but with an increased development role for North Wales, with a real push to grow the game up there and hopefully return to 4 regions in the longer term?

I think that could allow for short term stability and an immediate improvement in results (concentration of talent + funding), but with the potential of going back to 4 regions when ready.

I know 2 south Wales regions would make a lot of sense. There'd be an easy east/west split, and would result in 2 very strong regions. But if would be difficult to add a 3rd back in in future if required, so maybe one step at a time...

How would 3 south Wales regions look like? The easy solution atm would be to merge Ospreys and Scarlets, but i'm not convinced that gives the best regional spread in south Wales. Blues and Dragons should merge, as should Scarlets and Swansea, then a new central region should be created out of the rest of the Ospreys + Blues regions (valleys etc.). Big question would be whether that central region would be strong enough, or would it be repeating the failure of the Warriors again?
 
this makes no sense to me. why do countries need to meticulously manage every player in the country if they want to succeed? South Africa hardly interferes with the activities of the regional sides, and England has 12 teams going and Eddie Jones doesn't play pseudo manager with any of those clubs.

Shouldn't the goal be to produce a profitable entertainment product? Why focus on making winners 12 times a year when you can have winners 30 times a year. I don't think stronger clubs would hurt the national team either.
Obviously I would love for both the regional game and the national team to be successful but in the immortal words of Jagger et al "You can't always get what you want but if you try, sometimes you get what you need."

All I was pointing out was that the Welsh national team was a ****-show for years then after we went regional (together with some other factors in fairness) we became competitive at the very least and successful on more than one occasion.

Yes South Africa done it their way and we're successful, doesn't mean that Wales should follow that template. All cases are different and therefore need different 'handling'. That's not to say Wales (the WRU) are handling it right mind you, just better than it was.
 
Maybe we should look at going at reducing down to 3 for the immediate future (all south wales based), but with an increased development role for North Wales, with a real push to grow the game up there and hopefully return to 4 regions in the longer term?

I think that could allow for short term stability and an immediate improvement in results (concentration of talent + funding), but with the potential of going back to 4 regions when ready.

I know 2 south Wales regions would make a lot of sense. There'd be an easy east/west split, and would result in 2 very strong regions. But if would be difficult to add a 3rd back in in future if required, so maybe one step at a time...

How would 3 south Wales regions look like? The easy solution atm would be to merge Ospreys and Scarlets, but i'm not convinced that gives the best regional spread in south Wales. Blues and Dragons should merge, as should Scarlets and Swansea, then a new central region should be created out of the rest of the Ospreys + Blues regions (valleys etc.). Big question would be whether that central region would be strong enough, or would it be repeating the failure of the Warriors again?

For me it would be West (from Swansea west), South (Bridgend to and including Cardiff), East (East of Cardiff)... and although many people won't agree North (North of the Valleys).
 
Is there enough east of cardiff to compete with those other 2 though? It's essentially what we have now in the Dragons, and it feels like the population isn't quite there to support them. Geographically as well, Cardiff and Newport are within touching distance so imo it makes sense for Cardiff to host the east region.

I know Newport would be bummed to lose their region, but if the boundaries were re-drawn then sentiment and greed need to be left at the roadside this time. Would the Dragons supporters embrace a Cardiff based region? I don't know, but plenty of them will work in Cardiff anyway, and the capital city simply has to have a side ideally playing in a redeveloped CAP in the heart of the city.

Llanelli probably deserves to retain its host status due to the rugby culture there + the purpose built Parc y Scarlets. I don't think west Wales has enough population without Swanea though, not if the region wants to push forward again.

Finally is there enough population in the valleys and wider area if a new region with a purpose built stadium in say Ponty or Merther were created? It would certainly re-integrate a rugby hotbed that has felt abandoned since the demise of the Warriors, however there's no point doing so if the support isn't there though.
 
Is there enough east of cardiff to compete with those other 2 though? It's essentially what we have now in the Dragons, and it feels like the population isn't quite there to support them. Geographically as well, Cardiff and Newport are within touching distance so imo it makes sense for Cardiff to host the east region.

I know Newport would be bummed to lose their region, but if the boundaries were re-drawn then sentiment and greed need to be left at the roadside this time. Would the Dragons supporters embrace a Cardiff based region? I don't know, but plenty of them will work in Cardiff anyway, and the capital city simply has to have a side ideally playing in a redeveloped CAP in the heart of the city.

Llanelli probably deserves to retain its host status due to the rugby culture there + the purpose built Parc y Scarlets. I don't think west Wales has enough population without Swanea though, not if the region wants to push forward again.

Finally is there enough population in the valleys and wider area if a new region with a purpose built stadium in say Ponty or Merther were created? It would certainly re-integrate a rugby hotbed that has felt abandoned since the demise of the Warriors, however there's no point doing so if the support isn't there though.
I have read (not sure how true it is but it seemed credible) that there are more rugby clubs (& therefore registered players) in the Gwent region than any of the other three. Now that may well change if the borders were redrawn but currently it is my understanding.
 
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I have read (not sure how true it is but it seemed credible) that there are more rugby clubs (& therefore registered players) in the Gwent region than any of the other three. Now that may well change if the borders were redrawn but currently it is my understanding.

I've read similar in the past, but i think that can be misleading. The players find their own way, often following the opportunities which open up to them, be that within their own region, somewhere else in Wales, or even scholarships to top English colleges/schools. I'm more interested in the population base from a support perspective. Are there enough potential supporters to get enough paying customers through the turnstiles?

Where's the next sizeable population base outside of Newport within the region? Cwmbran is not fsr, but otherwise there's only a few small villages. So the Dragons rely heavily on the population of Newport for support, and it's just not big enough to compete with the Irish Provinces, or English clubs.
 

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