Trouble in Wales?

[bushytop]

As opposed to the rampant Dragons eh!

You genuinely think that with the professionalism the clubs wouldn't have erm professionalised?? The regions were/are meaningless, Ospreys is not the Welsh equivalent of Ulster ffs.

With all due respect, what your not getting is there is hardly enough money for four teams in Wales to be competitive let alone 12. We have a small population and a low average wage compared to England in particular. Teams like Pontypridd, Neath, Pontypool etc are struggling financially in the Welsh premiership (which is semi-Pro), there is no way they could've have competed in the Pro 14 or in Europe.

The problem is, the WRU didn't have the guts to just split the whole country into four quarters, which would've included similar populations... as Moffett had originally suggested. Instead the WRU and the clubs (particularly Cardiff and Llanelli) pushed the idea that we currently have but with the Celtic Warriors... it was a compromise that was never fit for purpose.

 

[Amiga500]

As opposed to the rampant Dragons eh!

You genuinely think that with the professionalism the clubs wouldn't have erm professionalised?? The regions were/are meaningless, Ospreys is not the Welsh equivalent of Ulster ffs.

So did you vote for Brexit then?

The clubs cannot professionalise very much if they can only get a few hundred people through the gate. It'll all end very quickly very badly.


So, lets say we pick 4 clubs and make them "super"clubs, put them forward into the Pro14 and see how it goes. We'll pick the top 4 teams based on a mix of league position and geography. Since you obviously cannot chop and change clubs in and out of a multi-national cross-border league due to the seismic shift in infrastructure and investment required, this is it set in stone forever.

So that gives us the following 4:
1. Merthyr
2. Carmarthen Quins
3. Newport
4. Aberavon

So are folks like yourself gonna follow Ponty in the Premiership and also rock up to Merthyr to watch them play Leinster in the league?

The Ospreys are going to the wall with attendances around 8,500 - 9,000 (till 2016-2017). No single "super" club would ever have come close (aside from one-offs way back in history).

Thinking otherwise is utter lunacy and indicative of someone with very poor cognitive function. The same mindset that will see rivers of chocolate run our way in April.

 

[MikeTheNative]

There is still a generation clambering to the dream that their small village side can compete which the top sides, which could happen to be fair in the amateur area. With the advent of professionalism this just can't happen, these small sides are unable to generate the amount of money it cost to compete.

 

[dullonien]

So did you vote for Brexit then?

Well the valleys overwhelmingly voted leave, despite possibly being the ones benefiting most from Europe!

Go figure!

 

[truthteller]

surely the wru can afford to invest more in the 4 regions...record profits, record revenues, record tv revenues for regional deal, record sponsorship deals at the regions, record national crowds, record judgement crowd, record test results....IF wales win the grand slam thats a £5.5 million prize....wru debts are down from £95 million to a mere £6 million now. the wru also borrowed £40 million last week from natwest bank. are they planning to invest more in regions, or are they off on a tangent with north wales region or this arms park stadium rebuild? yes the tv pro 14 deal is way lower than the english and french but a least its going up and up. whats the wru planning to do with central contracts / ndc's?

 

[bushytop]

surely the wru can afford to invest more in the 4 regions...record profits, record revenues, record tv revenues for regional deal, record sponsorship deals at the regions, record national crowds, record judgement crowd, record test results....IF wales win the grand slam thats a £5.5 million prize....wru debts are down from £95 million to a mere £6 million now. the wru also borrowed £40 million last week from natwest bank. are they planning to invest more in regions, or are they off on a tangent with north wales region or this arms park stadium rebuild? yes the tv pro 14 deal is way lower than the english and french but a least its going up and up. whats the wru planning to do with central contracts / ndc's?

Gats said that the other day that come the end of this year, the WRU will Have spent £5,000,000 More than they will have earned for the year... a combination of only 2 home 6 nations games and no Autumn internationals).

 

[truthteller]

Gats said that the other day that come the end of this year, the WRU will Have spent £5,000,000 More than they will have earned for the year... a combination of only 2 home 6 nations games and no Autumn internationals).

thats the first loss in many many years...i still dont buy it....IF they win the grand slam thats £5.5 million prize money....then they have england and ireland friendlies in august they will sell out on back of grand slam...plus splits from world cup and possible prize money and sell out crowds next 6 nations 3 home games...several sell out concerts this summer...anthony joshua due next year again....judgement day also in april with 4 regions will be a sell out if they win grand slam,it already averages a record 62000 ...wru debts have almost disappeared too thanks to national success and 95% of the players came from the regions...wru need to remember that. they need to invets more but also need to come a tight grip on regions who get wasteful

 

[bushytop]

thats the first loss in many many years...i still dont buy it....IF they win the grand slam thats £5.5 million prize money....then they have england and ireland friendlies in august they will sell out on back of grand slam...plus splits from world cup and possible prize money and sell out crowds next 6 nations 3 home games...several sell out concerts this summer...anthony joshua due next year again....judgement day also in april with 4 regions will be a sell out if they win grand slam,it already averages a record 62000 ...wru debts have almost disappeared too thanks to national success and 95% of the players came from the regions...wru need to remember that. they need to invets more but also need to come a tight grip on regions who get wasteful

I don't disagree with you that the WRU should be investing more... just telling you what was said is all.

 

[truthteller]

I don't disagree with you that the WRU should be investing more... just telling you what was said is all.

yeah thanks for that bushy...the wru also seemed to have money to set up a new region? strange how they have money for that but not to help the current regions more?

 

[bushytop]

yeah thanks for that bushy...the wru also seemed to have money to set up a new region? strange how they have money for that but not to help the current regions more?

They're contracted to supply four pro side's until 2022 at the least, so would have to pay fines if they could not for any reason. We need four regions though... any less and there wouldn't be enough game time for players.

 

[truthteller]

yet theyd rather pay the vast fortune of setting up a whole new region that the relatively small amount to help the current 4 survive? wru lost the plot

 

[ThebigARena]

As I've said previously a North Wales region is completely pointless . As for reasons already stated and it makes no sense in relocating a region to another region with half the interest of the region they are moving from..

 

[ThebigARena]

It happened when the WRU were too scared to stand up to the big clubs during the move to professionalism, but told the little clubs to stuff it.
What was created was a mosh mash of clubs and regions, which was not going to work.
I personally think that the clubs were too small to be part of the professional era, and this has been shown by the performance of the national team, since there have been only 4 pro teams, but Newport, Cardiff, Llanelli, needed to be put in their place and told, we are creating 5 (at the time) regional pro teams and they are going to be truly regional, (although I thought Llanelli was supposed to be in the West Wales region with Swansea and Neath, at first).
I would have had
West Wales Dragons (Pembrokeshire etc) instead of Llanelli, playing in Red, Gold and Black
Glamorgan Ospreys (West and Mid Glamorgan) as current but adding in the Valleys teams, playing in White, Black and Sea Blue
Gwent Steelers (all of Gwent) no Newport moniker, Royal Blue and Black
Capital Thunder?? No Cardiff moniker, Electric Blue and Neon Yellow.

This is how it should be basically the old county of (Dyfed) Aberystwyth , Carmarthen, to Llanelli as one region , ospreys south Glamorgan parts of Powys ystradgynlais, east valleys to stretch to Newport and Cardiff with surrounding valleys .

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Aberystwyth

Plascrug could definitely support a region

 

[bushytop]

thats the first loss in many many years...i still dont buy it....IF they win the grand slam thats £5.5 million prize money....then they have england and ireland friendlies in august they will sell out on back of grand slam...plus splits from world cup and possible prize money and sell out crowds next 6 nations 3 home games...several sell out concerts this summer...anthony joshua due next year again....judgement day also in april with 4 regions will be a sell out if they win grand slam,it already averages a record 62000 ...wru debts have almost disappeared too thanks to national success and 95% of the players came from the regions...wru need to remember that. they need to invets more but also need to come a tight grip on regions who get wasteful

As I've said previously a North Wales region is completely pointless . As for reasons already stated and it makes no sense in relocating a region to another region with half the interest of the region they are moving from..

While I 'get' what both of you are saying... the only way that you can ever hope to fully engage with the North Wales community is by giving them a team to support that plays at a professional level. There are a million people up there and Wales as a whole only has a population of 3 million... by not engaging the North WE ARE LITERALLY CUTTING OUR NOSES OFF TO SPITE OUR FACE!

... and before you say it, yes it will take aaaggggeeesss of a concerted effort by the WRU to get buy in from the majority of the population up there... and yes it will take aaaagggeeeessss for them to be able to produce enough players to sustain their team (should they get a team)... and then even longer before they supply a steady supply of players to the international set up... but it would all be worth it if in 20 years (probably longer), they are both sustainable and providing anywhere near a third of the players to the national squad.

 

[truthteller]

dont get me wrong I love the idea of growing rugby in north wales...but a pro team will take a load of money and a load of time too...It simply cannot happen during a time when the other 4 regions are struggling financially. its a shame the regions are all on the m4 just 70 miles apart them all...but stadia usually has to go to the bigger populated areas in the region....so thats cardiff the biggest city of approx 400,000 swansea second biggest at approx 250,000 newport third biggest at 170,000 and then you have west /mid wales...carmarthenshire is a spread out county from loughor to haverfordwest about 60 miles and 185000 .....llanelli and district is probably 80,000 so a lot smaller than the others...but llanelli rfc is a unique club its always represented the west so was always in effect a sort of west wales region.

north wales is approx 800,000 its a tidy size area, colwyn bay is ideally located imo nestled between a lot of decent sized towns...north wales atm needs to put everything into rcg becoming dominant....theyre the best supported club team already.....they get sell out concerts regularly at parc eirias too....they need to somehow make a profit and keep reinvesting improving on and off the field and most vitally the rcg and union need to keep reinvesting in the north wales academy. the factory belt of talent is the key to everything. keep nurturing keep feeding grass roots and see what grows....

IF in time the wru finally pays of its remaining £6 million debt...it then owns the principality stadium outright....it currently has £40 million funding available from natwest bank. But the wru must be so smart here. Theyre pumping millions into the failing dragons. they have ndcs on approx 15 players. But their main concern is stopping the regions frittering money on overpaid players, trying to limit the internal market driving up wages too. Do wales allow their older stars to go when they demand too much? Id say they should as they did with biggar. I understand the 60 cap rule but to stick too tightly too it means they lose world class players like rhys webb.

wales are with england the best supported national team in the world, maybe in all sport tbh.....70000 turned up to see them stuff tonga for goodness sakes lol so surely to goodness these matches are earning profits for welsh rugby. the other weakness in regional rugby is they prefer to be playing the english. despite the rivalry and endless tongue in cheek histility between the welsh and english. the welsh much prefer playing the english, always have done. Those derbies with bath gloucester leicester, bristol , and the big london clubs have been around for over a century and would usualy see massive crowds. I vivdly recall jack rowellls mighty bath with stu barnes gareth chilcott at a packed stradey back in the day. great times

 

[Taffelaide]

So did you vote for Brexit then?

The clubs cannot professionalise very much if they can only get a few hundred people through the gate. It'll all end very quickly very badly.


So, lets say we pick 4 clubs and make them "super"clubs, put them forward into the Pro14 and see how it goes. We'll pick the top 4 teams based on a mix of league position and geography. Since you obviously cannot chop and change clubs in and out of a multi-national cross-border league due to the seismic shift in infrastructure and investment required, this is it set in stone forever.

So that gives us the following 4:
1. Merthyr
2. Carmarthen Quins
3. Newport
4. Aberavon

So are folks like yourself gonna follow Ponty in the Premiership and also rock up to Merthyr to watch them play Leinster in the league?

The Ospreys are going to the wall with attendances around 8,500 - 9,000 (till 2016-2017). No single "super" club would ever have come close (aside from one-offs way back in history).

Thinking otherwise is utter lunacy and indicative of someone with very poor cognitive function. The same mindset that will see rivers of chocolate run our way in April.

We have literally chosen the path you are spruiking and its gone to rat ****. Hence this thread.

Those defending the regions in a thread about how its not working are really trying.

I don't know if keeping clubs and letting them build (like the football where Cardiff, Swansea and Newport have found their places) would have worked. What we DO know is that the regions haven't. 4 traditional clubs boosted would have eventually absorbed those around them AND retained the History of the clubs. The region franchises got rid of the good and kept the bad. Cardiff RFC would have garnered more Valleys support eventually than Cardiff Blues, similar with Newport and Swansea or Neath.


And those thinking lumping another soulless franchise in North Wales is the answer are even stranger.

 

[Amiga500]

Cardiff RFC would have garnered more Valleys support eventually than Cardiff Blues, similar with Newport and Swansea or Neath.

Delusional.

If it had been Cardiff RFC that was put forward, you'd have been saying "over my dead body".

 

[truthteller]

I cant believe everyone still arguing over this 16 years later, scarlets are scarlets ..cardiff blues or rfc whats the difference? blues is a new name so it feels inclusive for non cardiff rfc fans...newport gwent dragons was a merger of newport and ebbw vale and was the gwent team,, they got extra money to do this...eventually became just dragons....its not the best name but they play at newport they represent all fo gwent so why cant fans just embrace it and appreciate the opportunity they have....ospreys are a region merging together neath swansea bridgend aberavon maesteg etc etc if it was just called swansea rc wuld all these club fans have really followed it? i dont think the names would have chnaged this massively either way tbh

We simply must make the best of what we have now and simply work together far better and more cohesively

we are where we are...the national team is booming, the facilities are world class at test level and superb in llanelli and swansea, cardiff arms park is ok and their training facilities are superb, rodney (dave) parade has improved a great deal on and off the field. its an old school ground with atmosphere when full. if it was simply 4 regions run by the wru would all this be better or worse? would we lose the benefactors ? can we afford that? no chance....but maybe wru could keep the wages down a bit and control the internal market with more central contracts etc i really do think the regions need to stick closer to salary caps again though, if it means losing the odd star so be it....at the end of the day pumping funds into the academies and development like the all blacks do will get a better long term reward. WRU keep up your payments on your new £40 million loan, keep prudent, keep trying to keep the wage inflation down, keep looking at more NDC's, keep maximizing record revenues, find the best sponsorship deals , kit deals, stadium name sale deals, keep improving relations with the regions and share your knowledge and assets with them. Share national coaches from time to time, share business acumen, meet regularly to discuss keeping wage inflation down, ndc's. Also sending specialists to the regions when negotiating tv and sponsorship deals. It need not be us and them and distrust. we are all part of the same body. welsh rugby....Its collaboration compromise and negotiation....not eye for an eye dog eat dog as we saw last week

But also need to find a bit more funding for regional rugby imo...oh and forget north wales region for at least 5 years just keep improving the north wales clubs academy and RCG1404. hopefully that can become a factory belt of talent for all of welsh rugby. stop kids going across the english border and yes maybe one day we can revisit a north wales region idea.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

I think the WRU should have a conversation with the SRU if they are considering a franchise in North Wales. As I understand it, it isn't a densely populated area and doesn't have a strong rugby heritage across the area.

The Scottish borders has been a hotbed of rugby, but could not support a franchise. Smaller towns are often parochial rivals and fans may be reluctant to travel even 10 miles from one town to another to watch sport.

Similarly, the SRU haven't even entertained a franchise in reasonable sized cities of Aberdeen and Dundee, they didn't even give them a club in their new semi-pro league. The only success they have in new areas is playing pre-season matches in Stirling. I have to sympathise with the view that if money is tight and you are under pressure, the last thing you should be doing is engaging in a risky enterprise.

I'd also say that just because things aren't working perfectly never rule out things becoming even worse if you change them. The WRU gave the Dragons one year of increased investment and squandered it on an underperforming coach - there is significant potential upside there if they get the coaching right. Scarlets crowds were much better last year and Ospreys crowds reportedly haven't always been so low. I am missing something here. At least with Australia cutting the Western force I could understand the argument of removing one franchise. But I'm not even grasping the argument here