URC: the SF's!

[Leonormous Boozer]

I have to say hating on Leinster is no longer fun. I think they are just a really good team that was overhyped into a dominate force. Losing once in knockouts is a choke job, losing twice means that is just who you are.

 

[saulan]

Are you serious? I can understand you disagreeing, but not seeing the point made by the other side?
As impartial and well-intentioned as refs can be, they do make mistakes. This was a very, very tight call to say the least for which no camera angle can give us conclusive evidence. That is basically the problem here.

You would need some sort of hawk's eye to provide us with the exact location of the ball when its vertical position was exactly above the point where the crossbar stands. We do not have that.

Side question: can anyone recall a game where one AR raises the flag after a conversion while the other one doesn't? I cant.

Potentially poor wording. Let me rephrase a bit on what I don't see the point of. The tv review would not give a better perspective than the referees directly under the poles that are purely focused on if it went over or not. If it goes to TMO it's going to surely only be overruled if it's clear and obvious not going over given it was given by both the sideline refs on the field (and usually things only go to TMO when the refs haven't had a good enough view, again they should have been focused on this). The result would therefore be the same (we saw how adamant they were on clear and obvious on the forward pass).

If the argument is we need a Hawkeye to ensure this doesn't happen, then fine, I agree that it would be better to have something like that to avoid potential human error. But I don't see any change if it went to TMO, nor am I aware of any situation where a conversion kick has gone to TMO (I don't know if that's a reason in the laws to go to the TMO in the laws).

Of course I can also understand the emotional aspect to going out on something you feel is questionable. Hopefully the post above more clearly reflects what I meant.

 

[saulan]

The other take away I probably wouldn't have picked up on from the TV was how... non-dynamic I felt Vermeulen was. If I were an Ulster fan I'd feel cheated. Walked everywhere and juxtaposed with Roos' enthusiasm I know which I'd prefer at club level. Not sure that is the reason for him being snubbed for the series vs Wales. Perhaps they want to cotton wool him- we know what we have in Vermeulen. It might also light a fire under him?

Seen reasons on twitter of either an operation or looking to give him some rest. Both of those I'd buy. I don't think you leave him out otherwise since he is still one of our best and can be great as a mentor for the juniors (especially since they really are juniors).

From the NH commentary and watching from tv, he was probably in the running for man of the match if Ulster won. Some crucial lineout and breakdown steals within their 22 under significant pressure.

 

[ChicagoKid]

Seen reasons on twitter of either an operation or looking to give him some rest. Both of those I'd buy. I don't think you leave him out otherwise since he is still one of our best and can be great as a mentor for the juniors (especially since they really are juniors).

From the NH commentary and watching from tv, he was probably in the running for man of the match if Ulster won. Some crucial lineout and breakdown steals within their 22 under significant pressure.

I thought Duane was the best loose forward between the two teams and it wasn't close for me. He is clearly banged up, hence why he's not a first receiver. But his defense and jackaling were elite.

 

[Amiga500]

At the end of the day, two touch judges who had the best view decided quite quickly that it was over.

+1

They've the best views of anyone in the world - and they are only gonna say its over if they are sure.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

The player stats I've managed unfortunately doesn't cover pilfers for some reason. I do remember Vermeulen getting at least one penalty in the Ulster 22 in the 2nd half. I remember thinking what a lazy effort but clever as in the situation you'd actually want the penalty and not an actual turnover.

Other than (I'll have another look some time- maybe better stats come out later on) that Roos dominates the stats. TBF there is more to rugby than stats and Roos is a stats machine but TBF he made 10 tackles at 100% whereas Vermeulen comes in at 8 and 1 miss- and that was Roos sitting him down. Roos no penalties conceded, Vermeulen in at 1 penalty conceded. Both conceded 1 turn over (both knock ons).

On attack Vermeulen did absolutely nada (0 carries). Roos in with a try, a clean break, 3 defenders beaten and 39m (14 runs). Credit to Ulster as they limited his usual crazy meters per run average. Vermeulen edges Roos 5 passes to 1. To my point Roos goes looking for work and our game is very much dependant upon his go-forward ball. Vermeulen is a willy one though and picks his battles fair enough. Two very different players at this stage in their games.

On the whole I think very good seasons for both sides even though I still feel my Stormers are overachieving and its unheard of that heading into a play off our only real injury forced change is at hooker. Its a pity we are losing Gelant but as far as I've heard that is about it and we've gotten in Dweba.

For Ulster, Timoney I thought was massive in the early half of the season and continues to be busy. Most impressed with the center pairing and Ballacoune (spelling?) though. If they aren't scoring they are creating opportunities for others.

 

[WaterboySA]

I can't help but feel that Leinster did not start their best team, and in knockout rugby that is a no no. I've been a Bulls and Northern Transvaal fan my whole life, I did NOT expect to come close to winning this. I was sure Leinster would dominate us up front. It's almost the Ireland pack, they are one of the few packs that can take on the Boks. Why did that not happen?

 

[JohnKA]

I can't help but feel that Leinster did not start their best team, and in knockout rugby that is a no no. I've been a Bulls and Northern Transvaal fan my whole life, I did NOT expect to come close to winning this. I was sure Leinster would dominate us up front. It's almost the Ireland pack, they are one of the few packs that can take on the Boks. Why did that not happen?

Leinster have a weak pack. Internationals or not they are weak. No chance they can match the South African pack. Leinster lost because they were arrogant and poor leadership. How do you continue to go for lineout if you keep losing your lineout in a knockout game and in kicking range. I am pretty shocked how nobody gave the Bulls a chance. Leinster is a good team and will for now still be the team to beat but overated.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I don't know that Leinster has a weak pack per se. Certainly not the biggest in the league but just as certainly not a weak pack by any standard. I just think it was a perfect storm of sorts and nearly all the little things played into the Bulls' favor even though a lot of it was under Leinster's control ITO decision making both on and off the field, silly mistakes and turn overs that are certainly uncharacteristic. I suppose you can also forgive Leinster for some measure of complacency given previous results. It must be really hard to plan for and mentally get up for a match up where you destroyed the same side in the same season and then the rattle factor comes in when you realize you are in a game.

 

[JohnKA]

I don't know that Leinster has a weak pack per se. Certainly not the biggest in the league but just as certainly not a weak pack by any standard. I just think it was a perfect storm of sorts and nearly all the little things played into the Bulls' favor even though a lot of it was under Leinster's control ITO decision making both on and off the field, silly mistakes and turn overs that are certainly uncharacteristic. I suppose you can also forgive Leinster for some measure of complacency given previous results. It must be really hard to plan for and mentally get up for a match up where you destroyed the same side in the same season and then the rattle factor comes in when you realize you are in a game.

You can only play as good as the other team allow you too. The Bulls played well yet they also gave away silly penalties and can be much better. Tambwe conceding 2 obstruction penalties for instance. Not the worse pack in the league but if you look at the other packs in the URC being one of the strongest is not really something to be proud off.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Lack of leadership, poor decision making and arrogant yes, but we don't have a weak pack. We waltzed to the top of the log in the URC and beat the French champions and the Premiership leaders and finalists on the way to the European final.

A 7 man pack more or less dominated the sin bin period when Sexton came on and started leading his team, problematic that a 37 year old 10 is required for this and terrible coaching not to start him but the pack fronted up apart from line out time on Friday and for 65 minutes of the Champions Cup final (again until Sexton went off).

We also have no idea what would happen if Ireland and SA played right now, its been 5 years. Relatively weak Ireland teams have beaten South African sides in a similar fashion to the Bulls upset on Friday. Leinster were hyped up by casual fans and lazy pundits to be infallible, it definitely affected the camp on the last month, a bit of hurt, grit and siege mentality will do the squad good next season. In terms of talent, we'll still be top tier in Europe next season.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Lack of leadership, poor decision making and arrogant yes, but we don't have a weak pack. We waltzed to the top of the log in the URC and beat the French champions and the Premiership leaders and finalists on the way to the European final.

A 7 man pack more or less dominated the sin bin period when Sexton came on and started leading his team, problematic that a 37 year old 10 is required for this and terrible coaching not to start him but the pack fronted up apart from line out time on Friday and for 65 minutes of the Champions Cup final (again until Sexton went off).

We also have no idea what would happen if Ireland and SA played right now, its been 5 years. Relatively weak Ireland teams have beaten South African sides in a similar fashion to the Bulls upset on Friday. Leinster were hyped up by casual fans and lazy pundits to be infallible, it definitely affected the camp on the last month, a bit of hurt, grit and siege mentality will do the squad good next season. In terms of talent, we'll still be top tier in Europe next season.

I think that is closer to the truth than some of what I see coming from SA where a lot of casual fans are reading too much into the make up of the final.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a mad scramble next year to make the top 8 from the likes of us (Stormers) and the Bulls.

 

[saulan]

I wouldn't be surprised to see a mad scramble next year to make the top 8 from the likes of us (Stormers) and the Bulls.

Bulls I think will be fine. I think we need to win it this year because it only gets significantly harder from here. We haven't really been getting a lot more players to add depth to our squad, plus we are losing Gelant and there is that rumour of Kitshoff to Ulster of seen swirling a bit. Feels like this is our one chance to get silverware for a while... (but I may just be being pessimistic after many years of being a Stormers supporter)

 

[die_mole]

y'all lost to west and Chris smith. You don't need a superstar flyhallf to win so Byrne is becoming a bit of a scapegoat.

No reason in modern rugby not to play your reserve hooker or your loosehead for more than two minutes. It's a 23 man game; does Leo think he's Eddie or something?

hopefully stormers announce some signings once the season finishes. Now they have a proper checking account it should be an easy place to recruit from.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

y'all lost to west and Chris smith. You don't need a superstar flyhallf to win so Byrne is becoming a bit of a scapegoat.

Byrne is solid but he plays deep, slow and is no threat to the line, if he was playing for the Bulls on Friday and Smith for Leinster it'd be role reversal. Cullen spoke about "Leinster DNA" and Byrne doesn't have it, switch up the game plan or play one of the three other 10s in the squad who play flat. Byrne is the conservative call that works in the regular season on soft ground against weak teams but he's had three sub-standard performances in two seasons which have resulted in Leinster getting knocked out of competitions. Cullen finally dropped McGrath (who was top of my **** list last year) once Farrell showed him the way, he needs to do the same with Byrne next season.

I'd also argue that Irish teams do need a top class 10 to win, in the professional era the only silverware won by Irish teams without Sexton, O'Gara or Humphreys was the 2014 pro14 with Gopperth and Madigan. I'd add that the only notable game the international team won without those three was Paddy Jackson in South Africa in 2016, and he was no slouch.

No reason in modern rugby not to play your reserve hooker or your loosehead for more than two minutes. It's a 23 man game; does Leo think he's Eddie or something?

Yep, his substitutions have been poor, same in the CC final with the second row, we could have used a bit of fresh grunt far earlier than it came. I don't think its a coaching team that work well under pressure, can't really think of any big games where Leinster weren't expected to win or were even considered 50/50 and won.

I'm happy for them to have one more year and then move on regardless of results, they've nurtured talent and built an excellent squad but have relied on Sexton, Nacewa and Fardy for leadership. Sexton is gone next year and a tougher set up will be required.

 

[die_mole]

so you blocked the 2016 final out of your mind didn't you?

I feel ideally you'd want your backup 10 to be stable veteran (Charlie Hodgson is the prototype) but I think it's hard for Leinster to get that. Why be a backup at Leinster when you could start somewhere else? Now they are forced to put a never been out there or someone that they are trying to develop.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

so you blocked the 2016 final out of your mind didn't you?

I think I've repressed rugby from September 2014 to October 2016 completely.

I feel ideally you'd want your backup 10 to be stable veteran (Charlie Hodgson is the prototype) but I think it's hard for Leinster to get that. Why be a backup at Leinster when you could start somewhere else? Now they are forced to put a never been out there or someone that they are trying to develop.

Yeah possibly, but I'd take someone who plays to the line and can kick goals. I reckon we win on Friday with Carbery starting purely because the Bulls couldn't defend so passively in the 10/12 channel and blitz up outside it.

If you're looking to play attacking rugby these days you need a 10 who's a threat on his own. If you're pack is dominant it can harm you from time to time because the style of play is naturally more error prone but players like Byrne and, at a higher level, Ford and Pollard always compound difficulties their team is having when there's parity up front nevermind the opposition having an advantage.

I don't feel the need to recruit at 10 next season, Harry Byrne looks the business and finally had a stretch uninjured, Frawley can spend more time at 10 if Ngatai comes in as expected too. Pushing McGrath down the pecking order is more difficult but no one good is coming to back up JGP and the Leinster schools cup is not a good environment for a prospective 9.

The pack should only get better, no one is on the wane and the Porter, the Hookers, McCarthy, Baird and Doris all have room to improve while Conan and Ryan had up and down seasons which can be improved on.

Last chance saloon in the backs though, Sexton will be gone and JGP turns 32 in the 23/24 season and aside from maybe Jimmy O'Brien and Jordan Larmour there's not much room for improvement among the backs. If the second "golden era" of Leinster rugby only returns 1 Heineken Cup it'll be a massive underachievement. I think another 3 cups in the last 5 seasons would have been achieved under a coach of Schmidt's quality with this year and 2020 being really bad misses.

Rambling a bit now but I don't think everything is as catastrophic as it seems going forward. Relatively small issues in areas of selection, coaching, leadership and mental toughness lost the two biggest games of the season and individually they shouldn't be difficult fixes if the squad has any substance about them at all.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Bulls I think will be fine. I think we need to win it this year because it only gets significantly harder from here. We haven't really been getting a lot more players to add depth to our squad, plus we are losing Gelant and there is that rumour of Kitshoff to Ulster of seen swirling a bit. Feels like this is our one chance to get silverware for a while... (but I may just be being pessimistic after many years of being a Stormers supporter)

I have the same feeling but at the same time this team has bucked a few Stormers trends. Would be amazing for the squad to get some silverware.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

The tv review would not give a better perspective than the referees directly under the poles that are purely focused on if it went over or not.

I understand what you mean, but i am 100% in disagreement with that.
A guy with a couple of cameras could (not will be, but could) be just as or more accurate and precise in determining this. Especially if he could watch it several times, from many angles and slow it down.

The refs have the right to make the call and that is final? Sure, agreed.
Did they get it right? Not sure.
Agree to disagree i suppose, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Losing once in knockouts is a choke job, losing twice means that is just who you are.

You taking a jab at them or do you mean that?

 

[die_mole]

You taking a jab at them or do you mean that?

I meant it; they are a great side but clearly not in the league of their own like the media was building them up to be.