(Very) early thoughts on the 2017 Lions

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

North was very impressive in the 6 Nations. I think a big part of why he doesn't impress too much is that he's either stuck outside of Roberts-Davies or Burrell-Pisi, neither of which pass or give him any space to work with. Outside a midfield of Sexton/Farrell-Henshaw-Joseph he would get all the space he needed and wreak havoc. He does need to up his work rate though and come off his wing more (considering he's a converted 7 you'd expect him to be good at this).

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I don't understand so many selections picking North... When was the last time he did anything that really stood out as being superior to what any other NH winger has managed? Granted he doesn't get used well by Wales at all but it really feels that most of the Welsh selections are picked on past form, ie over a year ago at least.

I think it's the obsession with having at least one really big winger in the side, who is hard to stop from so far out, but also gives the option to come inside and crash it up the middle. North is a physical specimen and easily the best "big" winger the Lions have when on form.

I wonder if the concussions have had an effect on his form? I saw he had another head knock at the weekend after jumping for the ball, but miraculously passed the HIA and played on.

 

[BPM]

I don't understand so many selections picking North... When was the last time he did anything that really stood out as being superior to what any other NH winger has managed? Granted he doesn't get used well by Wales at all but it really feels that most of the Welsh selections are picked on past form, ie over a year ago at least.

100% in agreement on this. He needs a big 6 Nations to be considered anything like being worthy of being a certainty for the starting XV.

If we were picking on recent form, it would be very hard to justify picking him for the team.

 

[westernforce]

SOB at 6 and then Tuipric at 7,he's the stand out 7 from the home nations. Warberton should no way start or bench.

As for Yarde pushing for a place, you had to be joking. He's looking very out of place playing for England let alone the lions. Liam Williams or Nowell or Seymour are some of the other wing names flying around all much better than Yarde.

i just cant warm to williams..nowell seems to be playing well but it could be any of these.. why would you play o'brien at 6 when stander is there..o'brien hasnt played at 6 in over 3 or 4 seasons. tipuric is another robshaw..a 7/10 player

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

i just cant warm to williams..nowell seems to be playing well but it could be any of these.. why would you play o'brien at 6 when stander is there..o'brien hasnt played at 6 in over 3 or 4 seasons. tipuric is another robshaw..a 7/10 player

I guess with the quality we have back row is a preference for most people (including myself) but I'll make a case.

For me although SOB plays with a 7 on his back, he is playing 6 with great breakdown skills. That is something we would need against the all blacks. I just think his link work and carrying would be vital if we want to beat the all blacks.

While I like what I've seen of stander I just don't see him being a top star like SOB can be. Preference though.

As for tuipric, I think he's the best 7 around in the home nations at the moment. I know Hardie is pushing a great case, Haskell is a 6 and Warberton just isn't that good. It's his pace, link work and general 7 play I like.

But then I wouldn't mind SOB at 7 and Itoje or Henderson at 6 either, although it might lack pace.

Or Falateu at 6 and billy at 8.

The choices are endless but it will all be about a great combination.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Gatland has got to look outside Wales if the B+I Lions are going to make an impression in NZ.
Wales did ok in NZ earlier this year but they didn't look like they were going to upset the apple cart against a very young team trying to find its feet.
The Lions need the cream of Ireland and England to augment the key positions.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Henshaw and JJ is an orgasm infucing prospect if they click though. Lions experience is no difference to test match experience if you ask me, pick your best players and not guys who can bring the Lions' "ethos" and the only thing to blame for losing is the stupid schedule and outdated idea!

It really is different: it's unique. It's fantasy rugby, but grounded in reality.

And your point that the Lions being an outdated idea is just ridiculous. How can a player being the very best in the British and Irish Isles; wearing the shirt that has been worn by their predecessors in 128 years be outdated?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

It really is different: it's unique. It's fantasy rugby, but grounded in reality.

And your point that the Lions being an outdated idea is just ridiculous. How can a player being the very best in the British and Irish Isles; wearing the shirt that has been worn by their predecessors in 128 years be outdated?

Its a reason to justify an odd 50/50 call but trying to lump in ''experienced'' guys for the sake of it is destined to fail. There's no O'Connell's or O'Driscoll's this time around who are former captains or even leaders who deserve a place in the team, the closest you've got is Heaslip, Wyn Jones, Sexton and Halfpenny, Sexton is the only player there who if fit will definitely start, if fit being a big if.

By outdated I meant trying to create an international class side in 6 weeks with constant matches, I have many more reasons but here is neither the time nor place.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

It really is different: it's unique. It's fantasy rugby, but grounded in reality.

And your point that the Lions being an outdated idea is just ridiculous. How can a player being the very best in the British and Irish Isles; wearing the shirt that has been worn by their predecessors in 128 years be outdated?

Laughable isn't it? Next thing you know they will be saying women should have the vote

 

[profitius]

My Lions teams so far. Theres a lot of blanks spaces to be filled.

1.
2.
3. Furlong
4. AW Jones
5.
6.
7. SOB
8. Vunipola
9.
10. Sexton
11.
12. Farrell (take the kick)
13.
14.
15. Hogg


The best part of this will be the squad announcement and how many undeserving Welsh will make it. ;D

 

[jomjom]

I think the best of the best of the current crop of players in these isles are definitely capable of beating this All Black side. However I have no hope in Gatland. I foresee 3 valiant defeats, the first 2 games with the BI Lions scoring somewhere in the 20s, with the ABs somewhere in the mid to late 30s. The third match will probably be a bit more one sided, with the BILs not scoring more than 20, after an exhausting schedule.

Now, I obviously could be completely wrong and I really hope I am. It's obviously impossible to predict really, especially when we don't know the squad, so I guess what I'm saying is a bit moot, but c'mon... Gatland's record against SH sides is woeful. 4 wins out of 32 games. Wales when on form are most definitely capable of beating any SH side. They came within a whisker of beating Australia and South Africa in the WC and I think with a little less warrenball it would've been done. I've always liked Wales' little bit of off the cuff magic when needed most, but I feel that type of play is smothered by Gatland's regimented sluggishness. I'm looking forward to the series but I think it's a shame neither Schmidt* nor Jones are doing the gig. Vern Cotter would've been a cool choice as well.

*That said, I want Schmidt all the way through this 6N... should've been Jones

 

[Every Time Ref]

I think the best of the best of the current crop of players in these isles are definitely capable of beating this All Black side. However I have no hope in Gatland. I foresee 3 valiant defeats, the first 2 games with the BI Lions scoring somewhere in the 20s, with the ABs somewhere in the mid to late 30s. The third match will probably be a bit more one sided, with the BILs not scoring more than 20, after an exhausting schedule.

Now, I obviously could be completely wrong and I really hope I am. It's obviously impossible to predict really, especially when we don't know the squad, so I guess what I'm saying is a bit moot, but c'mon... Gatland's record against SH sides is woeful. 4 wins out of 32 games. Wales when on form are most definitely capable of beating any SH side. They came within a whisker of beating Australia and South Africa in the WC and I think with a little less warrenball it would've been done. I've always liked Wales' little bit of off the cuff magic when needed most, but I feel that type of play is smothered by Gatland's regimented sluggishness. I'm looking forward to the series but I think it's a shame neither Schmidt nor Jones are doing the gig. Vern Cotter would've been a cool choice as well.

I see the reverse, and not in a good way. I expect two thrashings then a win (unlikely) or relatively close defeat (more likely) by the Lions in the dead rubber when they have more to play for and NZ rest some players

 

[mattykay1989]

What are we all thinking/hoping about the coaches announcement tomorrow.
Scrum Coach ?
Attack ?
Defence Farrell ?
Forwards ?

 

[Peat]

Yeh North hasn't impressed since moving from Wales TBH.

Thing is, which winger has consistently impressed from that point?

North's name keeps getting mentioned because he's shown himself to be world class at points of his career and no other B&I winger can say that. Watson is the closest.

*pause*

Okay, Bowe could before becoming a pensioner.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

What are we all thinking/hoping about the coaches announcement tomorrow.
Scrum Coach ?
Attack ?
Defence Farrell ?
Forwards ?

I hope as few English coaches go as possible, don't fancy any more disruption than necessary to the team tbh.

Thing is, which winger has consistently impressed from that point?

North's name keeps getting mentioned because he's shown himself to be world class at points of his career and no other B&I winger can say that. Watson is the closest.

*pause*

Okay, Bowe could before becoming a pensioner.

I disagree, his team can be blamed for him not looking so good in attack but he has also looked really poor in defence where it hasn't been a failure of the team, just him. Definitely not world class when defending. People love to use the firemans lift from the last tour to argue against it but he is a liability in defence.

 

[Peat]

I disagree, his team can be blamed for him not looking so good in attack but he has also looked really poor in defence where it hasn't been a failure of the team, just him. Definitely not world class when defending. People love to use the firemans lift from the last tour to argue against it but he is a liability in defence.

Unless you think he's look really poor in defence his entire career - which we'd disagree on - I don't really see what that's got to do with my post. I'm not talking about his recent form. I'm pointing out no one else is impressing sufficiently to wipe out the memories of what North has done in the past.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

I hope as few English coaches go as possible, don't fancy any more disruption than necessary to the team tbh.



I disagree, his team can be blamed for him not looking so good in attack but he has also looked really poor in defence where it hasn't been a failure of the team, just him. Definitely not world class when defending. People love to use the firemans lift from the last tour to argue against it but he is a liability in defence.

I also disagree but with a different player. May has outrageous pace, his defence (as demonstrated in the Argentina match) is superb, he can finish as a winger should and is solid under the high ball. To be able to come back from knee surgery in that fashion whilst banishing the Sidemays nickname in the process speaks volumes. I'd pick him every time.

With respect to North, he hasn't looked like a threat for two premiership seasons, two six nations, one world cup and a number of summer tours/autumn internationals. If that's entirely down to the structure and style of his teams I would argue he's had time to adjust his own play.

Edit: my irrelevance is down to Xmas party. May looks world class, was some of my point.

 

[dullonien]

With respect to North, he hasn't looked like a threat for two premiership seasons, two six nations, one world cup and a number of summer tours/autumn internationals. If that's entirely down to the structure and style of his teams I would argue he's had time to adjust his own play.

Being a little too harsh on North there imo. He's certainly been a little disappointing over the last few seasons after such a great start to his career, but he's not been been as terrible as made out be some.

He was pretty decent in the 6 nations, and was on fire in the first (and his only) test v NZ in the summer. He's had a few excellent displays for Saints as well, and often gets on the score sheet for them.

What's become apparent though, is that when the team is playing poorly (as Saints and Wales have been), he struggles to spark things himself. I'd argue that most wingers available atm would struggle in similar circumstances, none (bar Liam Williams maybe) are the types to create something out of nothing (ala Shane Williams or Jason Robinson). What we have atm are a lot of wingers who are good finishers. I'm happy for people to state that other wingers are a little more rounded, better defensively, and better in the air, because North does still struggle sometimes defensively.

However, I'm still confident that given a sniff, he's still one of, if not the most lethal runners and finishers in the NH. He's got a wonderful blend of pace, power and agility that no-one else can quite match. I'd hope that with the talent available to the Lions, we should be confident of being able to supply our wingers quality ball, in which case we'd see the best of North.

Does he deserve it? Probably not. But I'd still pick him.

 

[Thingimubob]

I also disagree but with a different player. May has outrageous pace, his defence (as demonstrated in the Argentina match) is superb, he can finish as a winger should and is solid under the high ball. To be able to come back from knee surgery in that fashion whilst banishing the Sidemays nickname in the process speaks volumes. I'd pick him every time.

With respect to North, he hasn't looked like a threat for two premiership seasons, two six nations, one world cup and a number of summer tours/autumn internationals. If that's entirely down to the structure and style of his teams I would argue he's had time to adjust his own play.

Edit: my irrelevance is down to Xmas party. May looks world class, was some of my point.

Definitely a bit harsh on North that! Hope I don't have to whip stats out again like I had to mid way through the 2016 6 Nations North was quality throughout the last 6 Nations, if still below his usually excellent self. Stats from the first 3 or 4 games (so before Wales comfortably hammered Italy at home) showed that North was the best attacker in metres made, tries scored, defenders beaten etc. If that's what he can do when he's not quite firing on all cylinders, his best is gonna be bloody brilliant.

He didn't have the best Autumn (after causing the All Blacks all sorts of issues pre-injury), but I'm not convinced he was actually all that fit. Wales do have a bad habit of playing guys who aren't really 100% so wouldnt be surprised...

That said, with his enforced stand down for Northampton, who knows if he's actually gonna be in a state to play again this season. Genuinely worried for the guy considering the amount of head knocks he's had.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Versus Exeter North was damn impressive. His run off the kick off was something that no other Orem player could've done. When you put him in the right situations, he is lethal.