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Teh Mite

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England and France have Clubs as the highest level before test matches.
The Celts have Clubs & schools which feed into regions/provinces, whom feed the test side. - The regions/Provinces is the part which compete in the ML & HEC. They are the S14 level.

The AIL is technically the ITM, regardless if the gap between the ITM and S14 is smaller then the AIL & ML teams.

Care to be any more pedantic about it Ranger, or do you want to start from the very beginning and we'll learn the alphabet first?
 

donmcdazzle

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England and France have Clubs as the highest level before test matches.
The Celts have Clubs & schools which feed into regions/provinces, whom feed the test side. - The regions/Provinces is the part which compete in the ML & HEC. They are the S14 level.

The AIL is technically the ITM, regardless if the gap between the ITM and S14 is smaller then the AIL & ML teams.

I don't agree with that. NPC/ITM cup used to be the step down from test rugby in NZ, then the super 12/14/15 was another layer added in above that, except that there were only 5 NZ teams (as opposed to 12 or so NPC teams) so that then became of a higher quality.

There is no equavalent of the NZ system in the NH so there is no point saying "tier 2 in NZ equals tier 2 in ireland/UK/wherever" .. you can't make comparisons like that. Like I said before i think it's easier if you just look at the quality of players.
 

Teh Mite

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So what's the difference that the Welsh rugby league used to feed the Welsh team before the ML regions were added in between with 4 regions instead of 14 clubs in 2003?

The format is absolutely identical. The Irish, Scots and Welshists all use the same system.

The only real difference being that the Irish provinces have always been so they didn't need to create the franchises like the Scots and Welsh did.
 

donmcdazzle

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So what's the difference that the Welsh rugby league used to feed the Welsh team before the ML regions were added in between with 4 regions instead of 14 clubs in 2003?

The format is absolutely identical. The Irish, Scots and Welshists all use the same system.

The only real difference being that the Irish provinces have always been so they didn't need to create the franchises like the Scots and Welsh did.

I actually didn't realise the Welsh and Scots made up franchises, I thought they were just the prominent provinces that joined the magners league so yeah I guess I'm wrong and those systems are pretty similar.

I think one of points still stands though about the quality of players that make up those teams, that part of the comparison doesn't compare as favourably.
 

dan the man

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What is the whole point in this? is it regarding the level of the competition in relation to others or the quality of players within those competitions?

Regarding the level of players, obviously the ITM Cup is going to have a much higher quality of players. (thats a no brainer)
Regarding the level of the competition itself they are probably pretty even, although the northern hemisphere comps would have a larger following, simply because of the population. That being said it would be a huge mistake to not put the ITM Cup in this game, lets face it the majority of the best Rugby players in the world are born and bred in NZ and this is the competition where they start making a name for themselves.

NZ - approx. 4.3 million
UK - approx. 61.8 million
 

Feicarsinn

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What is the whole point in this? is it regarding the level of the competition in relation to others or the quality of players within those competitions?

Regarding the level of players, obviously the ITM Cup is going to have a much higher quality of players. (thats a no brainer)
Regarding the level of the competition itself they are probably pretty even, although the northern hemisphere comps would have a larger following, simply because of the population. That being said it would be a huge mistake to not put the ITM Cup in this game, lets face it the majority of the best Rugby players in the world are born and bred in NZ and this is the competition where they start making a name for themselves.

NZ - approx. 4.3 million
UK - approx. 61.8 million

Musn't......bite.....



Ah, hell. That's retarded.
 

Teh Mite

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What is the whole point in this? is it regarding the level of the competition in relation to others or the quality of players within those competitions?

Regarding the level of players, obviously the ITM Cup is going to have a much higher quality of players. (thats a no brainer)
Regarding the level of the competition itself they are probably pretty even, although the northern hemisphere comps would have a larger following, simply because of the population. That being said it would be a huge mistake to not put the ITM Cup in this game, lets face it the majority of the best Rugby players in the world are born and bred in NZ and this is the competition where they start making a name for themselves.

NZ - approx. 4.3 million
UK - approx. 61.8 million


Ignoring the dumb opinion parts of that statement, let's look at the real issue there: How many copies the game will sell vs the licenses:

Let's say for example 30% of New Zealand buy a copy of the game (over exaggerating a bit for the sake of arguement). That still makes 1.3m copies sold (as I say, massive over-exaggeration if everyone buys). However, lets also say a measly 5% of the UK population will be interested and actually go out to buy copies (absolute best potential being realistic). That's 3.1m copies. Then let's say that the Irish market including the plastic paddies: 5m in Ireland, then an extra 50m in America. Let's just call them another 5%. There's another 2.75m copies.

So: Put in the ITM and achieve a potential absolute best of 1.3m copies sold.
Put in the AP & ML and achieve a potential absolute best of 5.85m copies sold.

That's a difference of 4.5 MILLION*

*Note that not as many copies will be sold as this in any country, but there's far more margin for error as I used such a high percentage for the NZ figure.

On comparative costs of licensing vs profit, the AP and Magners MUST take priority in that department**.

**This excludes the French and Italian markets which suddenly opens the door for the HEC market and bringing in the extras throughout the European markets.

The ITM cup would be one of the last I'm afraid. The Currie cup is far more likely to bring in increased sales of the ***le then the New Zealand Championship. After working it all out, marketing value works as Heineken Cup -> Super 14 -> Premiership -> Magners League -> Currie Cup -> ITM
 

Dizzy

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Tigers and Sarries did that last season. Both beat the Springboks during in the same season the Boks couldnt. I recall a VERY 2nd string looking Munster also hold a 2/3 All Blacks to a couple of points not too long ago also - Should be noted that for the Majority of that game, Munster were the much better team also.

I also remember the Waratahs and Western Force being sent home with their tails between their legs over the past couple of seasons. The only team from one of the tri nations countries to get one over a european club in recent times was when the Stormers beat Saracens.

Maybe it's about time you game the Northern club game a bit more credit instead of announcing how crap the teams up here are just because you feel threatened.

No they didn't because the Springboks aren't the All Blacks so that point doesn't stand. [Remember now, the arguement is with the ITM Cup and the Northern Hemisphere no need to involve the poor South Africans]

The 4th or maybe even 5th choice All Blacks..

Again, point doesn't stand because the Waratahs and The Force are Australian teams and the Stormers are South Africans not NZ.

Finally some good counter points, a pity they took so long. So there are arguments either way so hopefully HB take note and make a decision on all provincial level rugby together and not just include one or the other. I hope they don't play the numbers game and put in all of the NH comps just because they outnumber everyone else but that would be typical. NH already rule the rugby scene 'boardroom' they don't need to rule come rugby video games also haha.

No because their points don't involve the ITM Cup in any way, shape or form.

Like I said: Tigers draughted in on-load semi-pros and used mostly Kids or 2nd/3rd choice players. The team was still called the 'Springboks", but "That doesn't matter"...
Off the top of my head, they included Rococoko, Jane, Weepu, Horsea Gear, Messam, Muliaina, Thorn & Flynn... Awful squad that. Don't
And they played against various youth squads. And still had their butts handed to them before being packed off. ( I may add reading the old match reports, I'm reminded just how poor the Wanderers team was that thumped the Tahs. Force were considered a pre-season warm-up)

I don't recall ever saying they wouldn't.
No it doesn't because they weren't called the All Blacks.

It's the step below the provincial teams. That's how it is the equivalent.

If you interpret that as meaning the quality is equal between the pair, that your own stupid fault.

No it's your own stupid fault because equivalent means being "equal with all things considered" so it's only logical [not stupid] to include the quality of competition in your statement.
 

Duckdee

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Didn't Billy Twelvetrees tear SA a new one in that match, despite it being approximately 12yrs old and on his debut*




*may be exaggerated for dramatic purposes

Nope, that'd be Manu Tuilagi. His best move of that match would be my avatar if there wasn't some gremlin lurking in the board software.
 

donmcdazzle

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Ignoring the dumb opinion parts of that statement, let's look at the real issue there: How many copies the game will sell vs the licenses:

Let's say for example 30% of New Zealand buy a copy of the game (over exaggerating a bit for the sake of arguement). That still makes 1.3m copies sold (as I say, massive over-exaggeration if everyone buys). However, lets also say a measly 5% of the UK population will be interested and actually go out to buy copies (absolute best potential being realistic). That's 3.1m copies. Then let's say that the Irish market including the plastic paddies: 5m in Ireland, then an extra 50m in America. Let's just call them another 5%. There's another 2.75m copies.

So: Put in the ITM and achieve a potential absolute best of 1.3m copies sold.
Put in the AP & ML and achieve a potential absolute best of 5.85m copies sold.

That's a difference of 4.5 MILLION*

*Note that not as many copies will be sold as this in any country, but there's far more margin for error as I used such a high percentage for the NZ figure.

On comparative costs of licensing vs profit, the AP and Magners MUST take priority in that department**.

**This excludes the French and Italian markets which suddenly opens the door for the HEC market and bringing in the extras throughout the European markets.

The ITM cup would be one of the last I'm afraid. The Currie cup is far more likely to bring in increased sales of the ***le then the New Zealand Championship. After working it all out, marketing value works as Heineken Cup -> Super 14 -> Premiership -> Magners League -> Currie Cup -> ITM

Sad, but probably true I'm afraid. I guess us NZers just want to see our competition in it since it's awesome to watch and has a lot of good players. I would much rather play with my beloved manawatu than with the hurricanes. But all the things you mention above pretty much do sum up the commercial reality of the situation regardless of whichever competitions are better or worse. I just hope/pray they find a way to have all the above competitions in and keep everyone happy.
 

dan the man

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I'm not trying to start anything... i'm just hoping that we don't miss out purely based on our population... the calibre of players is the same if not better and i'd be so disappointed if all that NZ Rugby got was the Super 15.
Having the ITM and Currie Cups wouldn't only benefit NZers and South Africans. it would also make the Manager, Career and World League modes lodes and give them more depth.
 

Teh Mite

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I think we're all agreed about that. In an ideal world we'd see all the above plus the Top 14, Pro D2, Heartland Championship, RFU Championship, LV= Cup, Vodacom Cup, Ranfurly Shield (and any other major cups or comps I've forgotten) are included into a season mode.

A neat detail would also be to include the TRF International Shield! :lol: Come on HB, you know it makes sense!
 

ranger

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It's the step below the provincial teams. That's how it is the equivalent.

If you interpret that as meaning the quality is equal between the pair, that your own stupid fault.

Its only logical. But sure we could just call each other names instead of discussing like adults.. Also as i have already said, the step below provincial teams is Club rugby.

England and France have Clubs as the highest level before test matches.
The Celts have Clubs & schools which feed into regions/provinces, whom feed the test side. - The regions/Provinces is the part which compete in the ML & HEC. They are the S14 level.

The AIL is technically the ITM, regardless if the gap between the ITM and S14 is smaller then the AIL & ML teams.

Care to be any more pedantic about it Ranger, or do you want to start from the very beginning and we'll learn the alphabet first?

Bullshit. This isn't being pedantic, this is just you straight up having your facts wrong.
In New Zealand it goes Club - ITM Cup -Super Rugby - Test Rugby. We have Clubs (AILEAGUE), that feed regions/provinces (aka NPC, National Provincial Competition ) (MAGNERS) that then get condensed into franchise super teams (THERE IS NO COMPETITION LIKE THIS IN THE NH).

I have already told you this. The All Ireland league is very similar to the NZ Club competition, which you don't believe exists apparently.

I might try to explain with colourful pictures;

3all_blacks_09.jpg


Anthony Boric playing for Club side Marist

Air+New+Zealand+Cup+Auckland+v+North+Harbour+hTsmqkv93Wyl.jpg


Anthony Boric playing for ITM cup side North Harbour

Anthony_Boric.jpg


Anthony Boric playing for Super rugby side "The Blues"

a_2008_nzpa_photo_of_anthony_boric__2053118998.jpeg


Anthony Boric playing test rugby for the All Blacks.

Those are the main tiers, now think about how to prove me wrong. When you realize you can't, come back and apologize.
 
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Sm00thice

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ITM and Currie cup are the equivlent of Magners League, Aviva Premiership and Top 14. Super rugby, a multinational competition is the equivalent of Heineken Cup. Australia doesn't have a provincial comp, because our administrators stuffed the attempt up.
 

TRF_Cymro

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Going to wade in here ...

I agree what people are saying here but just to clarify on Wales ... the 4 Welsh Regions are 4 Welsh Franchises similar to that found in S14 / S15 ...

Each regions has clubs assigned to it, where it can feed players to and from.

The following is how its mapped out:

Cardiff Blues: Cardiff RFC, Glamorgan Wanderers RFC and Pontypridd RFC
Llanelli Scarlets: Llanelli RFC, Carmarthen Quins RFC and Llandovery RFC
Newport Gwent Dragons: Newport RFC, Bedwas RFC, Cross Keys RFC and Pontypool RFC
Ospreys: Neath RFC, Swansea RFC, Aberavon RFC and Tonmawr RFC

This does not include other clubs that have appeared in the Premiership before.

As you can see its similar to what you find between the ITM and Super 14 / Super 15 NZ Franchise ... because when Wales grows up, it wants to be just like NZ!

As I see it and not in playing terms, Super 14 Rugby is the equivalent of the HEC.
 

TRF Mr Fish

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Actually our regional teams are made up of clubs, just like the Welsh regional teams.

Harbour is made up or North Shore, Northcote, Takapuna etc.
Auckland is made up of University, Suburbs, Eden etc.

So our ITM Cup teams are the equivalent of the Welsh 'franchises'.
 

_George

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England and France have Clubs as the highest level before test matches.
The Celts have Clubs & schools which feed into regions/provinces, whom feed the test side. - The regions/Provinces is the part which compete in the ML & HEC. They are the S14 level.

The AIL is technically the ITM, regardless if the gap between the ITM and S14 is smaller then the AIL & ML teams.

Care to be any more pedantic about it Ranger, or do you want to start from the very beginning and we'll learn the alphabet first?

get your facts straight matey .
 

TRF_Cymro

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Actually our regional teams are made up of clubs, just like the Welsh regional teams.

Harbour is made up or North Shore, Northcote, Takapuna etc.
Auckland is made up of University, Suburbs, Eden etc.

So our ITM Cup teams are the equivalent of the Welsh 'franchises'.

Urm not really because then there are clubs that make up those clubs ;)
 

lynam1104

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Why not make some comps DLC? i know people will feel ripped off but it would stop all the arguing and math.
 

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