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Welsh Rugby

Melhor Time

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May 5, 2007
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Looking back, its been over a decade since the Rugby World Cup was hosted in Wales and since Wales got their first even win over South Africa. It was also the only time when Wales has topped its Pool in a Rugby World Cup and was a Quarter Finalists after missing out oat the previous two tournaments. Four historical moments which occured before restructuring occured in Welsh rugby.

Before the restructuring Wales had its own domestic championship with 9 teams. Today there is not one - not professionally at least.

Welsh rugby went under the knife. 9 teams were cut to five - Scarlets, Ospreys, Celtic Warriors, Cardiff and Dragons and the domestic championship dropped down the rankings. After one season the Warriors were cut too making it four teams. Teams were forced to merge. The original idea of merging what today is the Scarlets and Ospreys was the idea. Thankfully it never happened. These two sides tell an interesting story. Llanelli is not a big city at all. There are larger ones in the Scalets region. The Scarlets and Ospreys have done well by importing players cheaply from across Wales and internationally.

Looking at it, how many of the Ospreys stars are from the region.... Ryan Jones is from the Dragons region, Tommy Bowe is Irish, Jerry Collins is a Samoan Kiwi, etc. These two have grabbed the bull by the horns and have new stadiums and have really shown that the original idea was poor. Cardiff have not had great success but have a new stadium and are good in the ML but up and down in the Heineken Cup. The Dragons were always going to have a team - unlike Scarlets and Ospreys, but the Dragons have been the worst performing Welsh side and today clearly are behind.

Has the objective been achieved. Ala, does Wales have a better national side at the expense of a reduced domestic set up. Its open to debate. Looking at it, Wales have 2 Grand Slam 6 Nations ***les since the changes. Then again, Wales were at their best in RWC 2003 which was before the restructuring whilst RWC 2007 was a disaster and was after the changes. In the Heineken Cup progress has been made but no team has won or made the final. Possibly the Scarlets were better before the changes.... Welsh readers can certainly contribute more than I can.

Some questions:

1. Celtic Warriors. What exactly went wrong. They were competitive on the field. Why were they disbanded.

2. Are four teams enough. NZ has 5 in Super Rugby and more than double in its domestic championship.

3. Are teams looking after the interests of Welsh rugby. Ospreys have Hook and Biggar. The Dragons have vastly inferior players and Cardiff have a Scottish flyhalf. Hook is leaving for France....

4. North Wales. Ignored eternally or should a team be created overtime based in Wrexham. The original idean included a team based there.

5. Wales improving. Are Wales getting better based on the changes or not.
 
Looking back, its been over a decade since the Rugby World Cup was hosted in Wales and since Wales got their first even win over South Africa. It was also the only time when Wales has topped its Pool in a Rugby World Cup and was a Quarter Finalists after missing out oat the previous two tournaments. Four historical moments which occured before restructuring occured in Welsh rugby.

Before the restructuring Wales had its own domestic championship with 9 teams. Today there is not one - not professionally at least.

Welsh rugby went under the knife. 9 teams were cut to five - Scarlets, Ospreys, Celtic Warriors, Cardiff and Dragons and the domestic championship dropped down the rankings. After one season the Warriors were cut too making it four teams. Teams were forced to merge. The original idea of merging what today is the Scarlets and Ospreys was the idea. Thankfully it never happened. These two sides tell an interesting story. Llanelli is not a big city at all. There are larger ones in the Scalets region. The Scarlets and Ospreys have done well by importing players cheaply from across Wales and internationally.

Looking at it, how many of the Ospreys stars are from the region.... Ryan Jones is from the Dragons region, Tommy Bowe is Irish, Jerry Collins is a Samoan Kiwi, etc. These two have grabbed the bull by the horns and have new stadiums and have really shown that the original idea was poor. Cardiff have not had great success but have a new stadium and are good in the ML but up and down in the Heineken Cup. The Dragons were always going to have a team - unlike Scarlets and Ospreys, but the Dragons have been the worst performing Welsh side and today clearly are behind.

Has the objective been achieved. Ala, does Wales have a better national side at the expense of a reduced domestic set up. Its open to debate. Looking at it, Wales have 2 Grand Slam 6 Nations ***les since the changes. Then again, Wales were at their best in RWC 2003 which was before the restructuring whilst RWC 2007 was a disaster and was after the changes. In the Heineken Cup progress has been made but no team has won or made the final. Possibly the Scarlets were better before the changes.... Welsh readers can certainly contribute more than I can.

Some questions:

1. Celtic Warriors. What exactly went wrong. They were competitive on the field. Why were they disbanded.

2. Are four teams enough. NZ has 5 in Super Rugby and more than double in its domestic championship.

3. Are teams looking after the interests of Welsh rugby. Ospreys have Hook and Biggar. The Dragons have vastly inferior players and Cardiff have a Scottish flyhalf. Hook is leaving for France....

4. North Wales. Ignored eternally or should a team be created overtime based in Wrexham. The original idean included a team based there.

5. Wales improving. Are Wales getting better based on the changes or not.

WARNING - Essay

First point, you missed that Wales in 1987 came third in the World Cup beating Australia in one hell of a third play off game. Paul Thorburn sinking a difficult conversion so that Wales beat Australia by one point.

It can be argued that since the regional system Neath is pretty much the only club that is still professional club outside of the 4 Regions, partly the reason why they always keep on winning the Welsh Premiership so easy each year. The reason for this is that the big money backers who did not support the Neath-Swansea merge, decided that they would fund Neath and make them the best team in the Welsh Premiership.

Im afraid that Llanelli is the biggest place in the Scarlets region, with a total population of over 46,000 people, Carmarthen is the next largest with 16,000 odd. As the regional set up began Llanelli, Swansea and Neath had pretty much strong sides and really did not want to emerge as the three of them were rivals and would find it difficult to play with each other because of the club's histories but also each believed it would not benefit Welsh rugby. At the time Llanelli president Ray Gravell labelled a merger between the Scarlets and bitter rivals Swansea as "unthinkable". It was something that simply could not happen.

Llanelli were major objectors along with Cardiff to the regional set up. Cardiff RFC and Llanelli RFC were opposed to this structure, stating that it "was not in the best interests of Welsh rugby". Despite Llanelli's intention to pursue legal action against the Union if the plans went ahead (Llanelli claimed they were owed money but also the WRU claimed they were owed some £2.3m by Llanelli), an Extraordinary General Meeting of the WRU was scheduled for 23 February 2003. All 239 member clubs voted, and most voted in favour of a regional set up. Of course of the 1 April 2003 David Moffat announced that the regional system would go ahead. Both the Ospreys squad and the Scarlets squad were only assembled on the cheap and did well because the Llanelli squad and Neath + Swansea squad were strong so it meant that the regional squads would be strong, little or no imports were brought in.

When you say 'These two have grabbed the bull by the horns and have new stadiums and have really shown that the original idea was poor.' You do realise that the Liberty Stadium was initially built for Swansea Football Club, to which the Ospreys wanted a new home for its region and bought into the stadium, the stadium was not built for them. Cardiff was the same, the Cardiff City Stadium was built for Cardiff City FC to which the Blues bought into sharing it because the Arms Park was falling apart and repairing it in the long run would cost more money that it was worth. The Blues since the regional set up have made it to the Semi Finals of the HEC and won the Amlin Cup and also finished runners up on two occasions in the Magners League in 2006-07 and 2007-08. The Dragons were a regional set up facing a struggle with Newport itself known for not having the real money compared that to the likes of Neath, Swansea and Cardiff to compete with them. The Dragons have had to make do, and make do they do well as they have started producing some gems from discarded regional players, which have turned out for Wales. Yes they don't get the results but they get a lot of respect for not getting the help that the three other regions do get from the WRU. The original idea was the regional system was not a poor one, it's what lies beneath it is the problem.

Regarding the RWC in 2003 and 2007, stems for me down the the players that were selected and who was in charge at each respective WC. In 2003 Hansen was coaching Wales, with all the hard work he and Henry had done to set Wales up for this moment. The 2003 WC campaign for Wales was 4 years in the making, it was down to the hard work that Henry and Hanson had set ready for the future. Yes Henry had left a year earlier but he had put in motion some solid foundations, to which are quite evident in the Welsh rugby system now. Wales got respect in the 2003 World Cup because they played a good brand of rugby and gave sides games but also the selection of players were key, most who were selected were players who were on form for their clubs and not favourites and out of form players. In the 2007 World Cup it was a complete shambles from the outset. Ruddock was sacked under the most amazing circus act that the WRU have ever produced and the treatment of Ruddock under the WRU was nothing short of appalling. Gareth Jenkins was selected and was not the most popular choice, infact he was the only real option because no one really wanted the job because the way the WRU and the Welsh Media aka 'Western Mail' were such harsh treaters of the Welsh National Team Coach. When the 2007 campaign rolled round, Wales was a shambles, a disastrous 2007 6 Nations campaign, summer tour and World Cup Warm Up games and under the 'great leadership' of Gareth Jenkins Wales were doomed. He selected the most random bunch of players known to man but also selected players who were simply not up for the job. The immediate retirement of Martyn Williams after the Fiji game and reading his Autobiography it was clear to see that there was something wrong with Gareth Jenkins. His success with Llanelli was one thing but there was something that you just knew he was never going to be good enough for Wales. He was really given the job as coach in 2006 because he had been overlooked for years previously. At the end of the day 2007 was a dark point in Welsh rugby.

NOW to answer your 4 questions.

The Celtic Warriors. The financial problems at Pontypridd RFC led to the sale of their half of the Warriors to Bridgend RFC owner Leighton Samuel, which he in turn gave to the WRU, a move that would later condemn the club. Further problems occurred as Samuel made the decision to abandon Pontypridd's Sardis Road in favour of playing all Warriors games in Bridgend. This brought the club into conflict with a large proportion of its fan base and attendances fell.

Trouble followed in the Spring and early Summer of 2004 where Leighton Samuel repeatedly threatened and revoked threats of selling the club; one such instance went as far as Samuel accepting an offer from the WRU before changing his mind. This transaction was considered to be legally binding, and the Warriors became 100% owned by the WRU who decided to liquidate the club on 1 June 2004. Read it HERE. Samuels claimed that the WRU had promised to keep the region going for a second season but reneged on the deal. He challenged the Union over this in a high court case which the Union settled just before it came to court.

With the demise of the club, players' contracts were effectively torn up as they were pushed around to fill positions in the other four regional sides. A number simply chose to turn their back on the Welsh game and moved to teams in England, France, Ireland and Italy. This left the ex-Warriors' fans feeling alienated from the professional game.

In the aftermath of the demise of the Warriors, a new rugby league club Celtic Crusaders was formed that play out of Brewery Field. They are funded by Leighton Samuel, who has claimed that they are the reincarnation of the Warriors franchise. Yet the Crusaders left, and Samuels once again left them in ruin. Samuels was the sole person to be blamed for the demise of the Warriors, anyone who disagrees is either a family relative of Samuels or im afraid to say has no clue on the matter.

Regarding are the 4 teams enough. Its a tough one. I think it is but the player pool needs to be looked at. Take for instance Tom Prydie, playing for Swansea is ok week in week out but he needs to be exposed at Regional Rugby, at the Ospreys he wont get in at 15 ahead of Byrne and Barry Davies. He ideally should have gone to the Dragons who are short on quality. Im a firm believer that the WRU should be able to step in and say look Ospreys he needs game time and we are going to take him on loan from you and place him on loan at the Dragons. Of course the simplicity of this is not that easy as there are legal matters and you can't really central contract Regional players, but they could do for Welsh international players, and place it into their National Contracts! Regarding Fly Halves situation you mention, Ospreys also have Mathew Morgan who looks a real prospect but his stature is where he will always be questioned. Biggar is over hyped and always will be. Until he is brought down to earth he will never develop that well. The Dragons have Jason Tovey, but his injury problems and sometimes he is questioned over his defensive abilities. Rhys Preistland at the Scarlets will be an able replacement for Jones but watch out for Steve Shingler who is no mug and has a promising future. The Blues have Parks as you mentioned but also Ceri Sweeney, who is Mr Hot and Cold. They have a promising fly half in Gareth Davies who has international experience with Welsh 7s, he again looks a good prospect but where is he going to get game time. 4 regions have brought competitiveness for places and for players to develop they got to fight their way up to play in a good regional competition. Ill come back to whats underneath after my next point.

North Wales has not been forgotten recently. RGC 1404 (formerly known as Rygbi Gogledd Cymru (Rugby North Wales ;) )) is a rugby union development team that were announced by the WRU in September 2008. Although an amateur representative side had existed in North Wales for over 50 years, Gogledd Cymru was established by the North Wales Rugby Council, in Feb 2007, in response to the WRU approved strategic plan for the development of rugby union in the region. The WRU are hoping that a North Wales side will be playing in the Welsh Premiership division by 2011-12. The WRU had initially said 2010-11 but the development of the RGC has been slow.

The major problem lie with the structures and planning put in place by Gogledd Cymru stimulated a unique rugby partnership with Conwy County Borough Council,the WRU and Rugby Canada. In August 2009 a series of major initiatives were announced aimed at the continued development of the game in North Wales . These included launching a North Wales Rugby Academy and an innovative plan to introduce Rugby Canada international players to the development region's representative team. So the side is just filled with Canadian International players with a smattering of North Wales rugby players.

The set up is getting better under HERE, you can see some of the North Wales players currently playing for sides in England and in Wales. The talent is there, it just needs looking after. They need looking after by the WRU and learn from the mistakes that were made under the Celtic Warriors. It comes back to a point regarding players that need experience. When the Regional system was suggested it was always suggested that Wales would have a region up North that would be supplied with the youth and players who needed game time, of course this was rejected by clubs and members because they wanted their players to stay at their current clubs and not be farmed out to a mickey mouse region. For me if they were to be allowed into the Magners League then the 4 existing regions should look at giving clubs like RGC and the Dragons the likes of Prydie to develop and gain the vital experience and the exposure to a higher level of rugby to benefit Welsh rugby, but of course there will be the people there to say no can't do that, what are we getting from it and why should we send our own youth products out to other clubs when we spent time developing them. Really they should be quiet and let these players go on loan to gain the vital experience needed.

Another major competition that is starting to emerge in North Wales is Rugby League, the Crusaders are starting to tap the rugby market here for players. Again if the WRU does not go and sort this North Wales region out then there will be problems down the line. The youngsters will go and end up playing Rugby League instead of union, Im not against it I think the moving of the Crusaders up to North Wales was the best thing for League because there was an untapped rugby market there. But if there are good rugby players there look at Robin McBryde and George North as examples then yes there are players there and need to be looked at.

Going back to the Domestic Championship aka the Welsh Premiership. The standard is slowly improving. Over the years since the Regional split, it has been debated on how to improve the standard of it. The recent suggestion which was made by Sir Warren of Gatland was that an ITM system should be brought in and looked at. Another way suggested is a Super 8 system with the best 8 and the rest feeding into them. Another was a spilt of 16 / 18 and after a season it would be spilt into two leagues with promotion and relegation. Something needs to be done about it, the best solution is to make it into an ITM style competition. However a suggestion made by a mate was do the ITM style but getting the players from the regional systems to feed down into it, like what happens down South now, only problem I told him is that this simply would not work with the current structure and it would not change. It would involve changing the Magners League, Aviva Prem, Top 14, HEC etc ... something that could simply not really happen. But an ITM style competition is the way that will probably get the best and most competitive competition going for the Welsh game.

In conclusion Wales is improving, based on the regional system the quality of players coming through are better than what was there before, but it has taken years to notice the effects and I think it will be a few more years until the work that was set by Henry and Hanson will truly be seen in Wales.

Sorry about the essay / read but thats my explanation.
 
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Great post. :)

I think 4 teams can certainly become five and should.

Looking at Mike Petri arriving at the Dragons is a case in point. He is the number 2 USA scrumhalf and the club bought him cheaply. The same is true of most imports in Wales. Which is really the key to making it work. Teams cannot just go off selecting and signing the best local talent. For all of the great outside backs at Ospreys they still have Tommy Bowe. But with Bowe this means there is never going to be a place for all the Welsh test players. Like you said in regards to Prydie. So, there seems to not be a place for everyone. Brew from the Dragons is a good winger and the team would be better with Prydie there too. Ospreys have Bowe, Williams, Prydie and Nikki Walker and more player for wings! - an oversupply. Sounds like Toulon only on less pay. Clearly one or two are not needed.

Most importantly, looking at a map of Wales tells an intereting story. We have touched on North Wales but really there is more it it than just Wrexham habing a team. All four of the existing teams are on the Southern coast and are not exactly far aart. The Celtic Warriors were also before joining the Ospreys. The population is of course based in this region with three bing the largest Welsh cities - Cardiff, Swansea and Newport. Pretty hard to argue against them having sides. This, however, continues the status quo of four on the south coast and one elsewhere. I thought Wrexham was larger than Llanelli but like you say it is not. It is still, nonetheless, the largest city in the north and is of a similar size. Only a few thousand in it.

So, perhaps getting a team in the north is the way to go. Players can be from Wales as well as abroad. There are so many cheap players on the market liek Mike Petri. This years Rugby World Cup will again feature great players who are amateurs. Some amateur players from Canada, Tonga and Romania will certainly be more than capable of playing for a team like the Dragons. Just look at Canadian international DTH van der Merwe who is the best try scorer for Glasgow this season.
 
Great post. :)

I think 4 teams can certainly become five and should.

Looking at Mike Petri arriving at the Dragons is a case in point. He is the number 2 USA scrumhalf and the club bought him cheaply. The same is true of most imports in Wales. Which is really the key to making it work. Teams cannot just go off selecting and signing the best local talent. For all of the great outside backs at Ospreys they still have Tommy Bowe. But with Bowe this means there is never going to be a place for all the Welsh test players. Like you said in regards to Prydie. So, there seems to not be a place for everyone. Brew from the Dragons is a good winger and the team would be better with Prydie there too. Ospreys have Bowe, Williams, Prydie and Nikki Walker and more player for wings! - an oversupply. Sounds like Toulon only on less pay. Clearly one or two are not needed.

Most importantly, looking at a map of Wales tells an intereting story. We have touched on North Wales but really there is more it it than just Wrexham habing a team. All four of the existing teams are on the Southern coast and are not exactly far aart. The Celtic Warriors were also before joining the Ospreys. The population is of course based in this region with three bing the largest Welsh cities - Cardiff, Swansea and Newport. Pretty hard to argue against them having sides. This, however, continues the status quo of four on the south coast and one elsewhere. I thought Wrexham was larger than Llanelli but like you say it is not. It is still, nonetheless, the largest city in the north and is of a similar size. Only a few thousand in it.

So, perhaps getting a team in the north is the way to go. Players can be from Wales as well as abroad. There are so many cheap players on the market liek Mike Petri. This years Rugby World Cup will again feature great players who are amateurs. Some amateur players from Canada, Tonga and Romania will certainly be more than capable of playing for a team like the Dragons. Just look at Canadian international DTH van der Merwe who is the best try scorer for Glasgow this season.

To be honest the reason why there has never really been a strong side from North Wales comes down to a couple of reasons. One of them is the fact you have sort of pointed out to. The 5 Welsh regions at the time were all based in the heartlands of Welsh rugby, the 4 left now still of course are. So the North has never really featured because of that. Another reason is for the fact of travelling and its difficulty. Look at the maps below.

wales.jpg


wales-map.jpg


The map on the top shows the physical dilemmas between North and South Wales, and look at the map below for the road network. You can easily see that the only motorway links the old industrial heartlands of Wales and also conveniently the Welsh regions. The road that links North to South Wales can take some 6-9 hours to travel from, which realistically is not possible for a rugby game. But this has been the old age problem since rugby began in Wales. Transport and logistics has played a role. Possibly the largest role in this also bases that the Southern Clubs believe that the game in the South is superior to the North and if they played the South would dominate. Personally I believe this to be true, I have played against first team sides from North Wales top division and played against / seen some of the sides down South from the top division and really there is no comparison. This does not mean that there are no good players up North, far from it. Problem lies with the rugby elite down South and always has done. To shift the tide would be a tough one, something that won't happen quick. All the Welsh talent pool lies down in South Wales and this is where you will find the players who want to play international rugby, they all have to move down from North Wales to play down here, all the big clubs are here and also where the money lies. Also look at the hills. Not easy to get round.

This is where the 5 region or the RGC would have I feel a problem. I know that the Southern Clubs in secret do not want the RGC because they believe that the Celtic Warriors were not looked after by the WRU, not only that but also shows that the WRU has gone back on a promise that it would eventually look when it could at bringing a region back to the 'Welsh Valleys'. The Valley boys who are still anti-WRU still feel very bitter over the way the Celtic Warriors were treated. They still believe that the WRU could have done more, they could have done, but the problem lied with not ensuring the correct people were running the clubs and that the money was correctly spent. The Celtic Warriors were a powerful side, a lot of Welsh players were involved with this club, notably Gethin Jenkins, Matthew Rees, Mefin Davies, Ryan Jones, Robert Sidoli, Sonny Parker, Gareth Thomas, Kevin Morgan and Maama Molitika. All players they had, all international players. They would have dominated sides had they continued, Im pretty sure if they were in existence today, the likes of Prydie would be playing for the Ospreys as the talent would be spread out and the development of youngsters would be key.

So the question is, if I believe the Warriors stayed alive and could continue producing internationals and they could compete surely the RGC could do the same? Well thats where the dilemma lies. Its a gamble, a possible expensive one for the WRU, if the RGC fails then the financial implication will be severe again. Players will be out of the job and the money invested will have gone to waste. If they don't let them in, people will always moan that they have never been tested and that we will never know if the RGC would be good enough. The RGC is someway off being considered good enough to be entered into the Magners League. They got to get into the Welsh Prem first, and dominate that. Somehow I don't think they will, the likes of Neath, Swansea and Cardiff will have something to say about it. Then again, if they succeed over a number of years and the player pool is there, then give them a go, its some 5 years + down the line before this can happen. At the end of the day a 5th Welsh region could work, but I am very curious as to whether a 5th region could be from North Wales.
 
I would love a region up here.. but as said the logistics of getting here it's either a ~5 hour journey on a bus going into england an up then across or longer going up the west of wales, or even flying from cardiff to liverpool then a bus across the A55... RGC are entering the welsh prem in the 2012/13 season iirc not 100% sure on it but they have quite a good youth squad. yeah they get beaten by ospreys, blues, scarlets etc. the U16's lost everygame so far but the U18s have won 1 which is a start tbh considering the coaching gap etc.
 
Nine Canadians have been named to RGC 1404 the idea is to boost both the level of the team and give the Canadians some meaningful game experience instead of freezing their butts off here. They destroyed the anti-assassins 66-0 last weekend and are playing some tougher competition in the weeks to come. Not all Canadian rugby supporters like this move and it is relatively costly on our extremely shoestring budget, I don't mind it the players get some rugby game time and get to work together for several months in a row in a RWC year this can't be a bad thing.

Nick Blevins (Centre)
Connor Braid (Fly-half)
Hubert Buydens (Prop)
Luke Cudmore (Second Row)
Jason Marshall (Prop/hooker)
Chauncey O'Toole (Flanker)
Jon Phelan (Second Row)
Jebb Sinclair (Flanker/Second Row)
Sean White (Scrum Half)
 
@ Little Guy

Is Luke Cudmore a relative of the Cudmore that plays in France? (forgot his first name)
 
@ Little Guy

Is Luke Cudmore a relative of the Cudmore that plays in France? (forgot his first name)

Ye Jamie Cudmore who plays for Clermont Auvergne and there other brother Dan starred as the mutant Colossus in the X-Men films :lol:.
 
Just wondering whats the distance between the 2 clubs furthest away from each other in the English Premiership and how long does it take to get there?
 
its more than south to north wales by around 2 hours.. but then as said earlier to get from north to south you can only go 2 ways .. coast route aka up/down west wales or go east into england down the motorway and across the M4 where as seen there it mainly motorways all the way..
 
To be honest the reason why there has never really been a strong side from North Wales comes down to a couple of reasons. One of them is the fact you have sort of pointed out to. The 5 Welsh regions at the time were all based in the heartlands of Welsh rugby, the 4 left now still of course are. So the North has never really featured because of that. Another reason is for the fact of travelling and its difficulty. Look at the maps below.

wales.jpg


wales-map.jpg


The map on the top shows the physical dilemmas between North and South Wales, and look at the map below for the road network. You can easily see that the only motorway links the old industrial heartlands of Wales and also conveniently the Welsh regions. The road that links North to South Wales can take some 6-9 hours to travel from, which realistically is not possible for a rugby game. But this has been the old age problem since rugby began in Wales. Transport and logistics has played a role. Possibly the largest role in this also bases that the Southern Clubs believe that the game in the South is superior to the North and if they played the South would dominate. Personally I believe this to be true, I have played against first team sides from North Wales top division and played against / seen some of the sides down South from the top division and really there is no comparison. This does not mean that there are no good players up North, far from it. Problem lies with the rugby elite down South and always has done. To shift the tide would be a tough one, something that won't happen quick. All the Welsh talent pool lies down in South Wales and this is where you will find the players who want to play international rugby, they all have to move down from North Wales to play down here, all the big clubs are here and also where the money lies. Also look at the hills. Not easy to get round.

This is where the 5 region or the RGC would have I feel a problem. I know that the Southern Clubs in secret do not want the RGC because they believe that the Celtic Warriors were not looked after by the WRU, not only that but also shows that the WRU has gone back on a promise that it would eventually look when it could at bringing a region back to the 'Welsh Valleys'. The Valley boys who are still anti-WRU still feel very bitter over the way the Celtic Warriors were treated. They still believe that the WRU could have done more, they could have done, but the problem lied with not ensuring the correct people were running the clubs and that the money was correctly spent. The Celtic Warriors were a powerful side, a lot of Welsh players were involved with this club, notably Gethin Jenkins, Matthew Rees, Mefin Davies, Ryan Jones, Robert Sidoli, Sonny Parker, Gareth Thomas, Kevin Morgan and Maama Molitika. All players they had, all international players. They would have dominated sides had they continued, Im pretty sure if they were in existence today, the likes of Prydie would be playing for the Ospreys as the talent would be spread out and the development of youngsters would be key.

So the question is, if I believe the Warriors stayed alive and could continue producing internationals and they could compete surely the RGC could do the same? Well thats where the dilemma lies. Its a gamble, a possible expensive one for the WRU, if the RGC fails then the financial implication will be severe again. Players will be out of the job and the money invested will have gone to waste. If they don't let them in, people will always moan that they have never been tested and that we will never know if the RGC would be good enough. The RGC is someway off being considered good enough to be entered into the Magners League. They got to get into the Welsh Prem first, and dominate that. Somehow I don't think they will, the likes of Neath, Swansea and Cardiff will have something to say about it. Then again, if they succeed over a number of years and the player pool is there, then give them a go, its some 5 years + down the line before this can happen. At the end of the day a 5th Welsh region could work, but I am very curious as to whether a 5th region could be from North Wales.

Sorry for the delay.

Logistics and mountains. A good point - a very good one indeed for Welsh rugby but I am not so convinced for the Magners League. Trips from Newport to Galway, Swansea to Treviso or Llanelli to Glasgow are certainly a lot further. Correct me if I am wrong, but surely there are no direct flights on any of these routes. The Dragons would surely use Cardiff or London to get to their matches in Ireland or Italy. This is my point of view as to why a team based in Wrexham should be the WRU´s target. Getting from Wrexham to Manchester to fly for away matches is a simple task.

Newport to Swansea is a little over an hour. Obviously derby matches vs Dragons - Blues - Ospreys - Scarlets would not exactly be derby´s but then again nor is Munster vs Ulster which is four hours by road compared to Wrexham - Newport (via England) which is three hours by road - faster than Wrexham to Llanelli despite the Scarlets including Llanelli and Wrexham. yet, Munster vs Ulster is a big deal and is considered by everybody to be a derby.

So, really if an additional Welsh team is to get the push then I see no reason to give it to Bridgend, Pontypridd, Barry or another Southern region. Its like giving West Sydney a Super Rugby team instead of Melbourne. Almost identical infact but it´s a no brainer that Melbourne had to get a team.

The WRU should look at another side. Helping rugby in the north is helping Welsh rugby. Its going to take soem time but surely this decade (2011-2020) could see another side. Italy will have another side or two overtime, assming the ML want more sides. Wrexham has a stadium that at the time of the transition in Wales was larger than those used by all other sides except Cardiff. Today it is still larger than the Scarlets´ and Dragons´ venues.
 
Sorry for the delay.

Logistics and mountains. A good point - a very good one indeed for Welsh rugby but I am not so convinced for the Magners League. Trips from Newport to Galway, Swansea to Treviso or Llanelli to Glasgow are certainly a lot further. Correct me if I am wrong, but surely there are no direct flights on any of these routes. The Dragons would surely use Cardiff or London to get to their matches in Ireland or Italy. This is my point of view as to why a team based in Wrexham should be the WRU´s target. Getting from Wrexham to Manchester to fly for away matches is a simple task.

Newport to Swansea is a little over an hour. Obviously derby matches vs Dragons - Blues - Ospreys - Scarlets would not exactly be derby´s but then again nor is Munster vs Ulster which is four hours by road compared to Wrexham - Newport (via England) which is three hours by road - faster than Wrexham to Llanelli despite the Scarlets including Llanelli and Wrexham. yet, Munster vs Ulster is a big deal and is considered by everybody to be a derby.

So, really if an additional Welsh team is to get the push then I see no reason to give it to Bridgend, Pontypridd, Barry or another Southern region. Its like giving West Sydney a Super Rugby team instead of Melbourne. Almost identical infact but it´s a no brainer that Melbourne had to get a team.

The WRU should look at another side. Helping rugby in the north is helping Welsh rugby. Its going to take soem time but surely this decade (2011-2020) could see another side. Italy will have another side or two overtime, assming the ML want more sides. Wrexham has a stadium that at the time of the transition in Wales was larger than those used by all other sides except Cardiff. Today it is still larger than the Scarlets´ and Dragons´ venues.

The flights are chartered by the clubs and also by the airlines, all the Welsh regions tend to fly from Cardiff Airport to places. I don't get you when you make such a deal of teams traveling to fly when you say Wrexham to Manchester is a simple task, no doubt as it's only just under and hour to get there.

Then when you say that time sort of factors derbies, its not really its the history each region has with each other and the clubs that were put together to make those regions.

It's not really feasible for the North Wales region to even consider playing their games at the Racecourse Stadium anyway. Yes it holds some 700 seats more than Parc Y Scarlets but that is here or there really. Two teams currently occupy the Racecourse Stadium in Wrexham FC and the Crusaders RL, so the North Wales region would have to look at playing there games somewhere else.

Its all well and good demanding a 5th region but when the finances are not there and when the squad strength would be worse than that of Arioni then its not feasible to even consider the RGC 1404 as a region, they have potential but I have serious doubt they could even compete with the likes of the Blues and Dragons for example.
 
The flights are chartered by the clubs and also by the airlines, all the Welsh regions tend to fly from Cardiff Airport to places. I don't get you when you make such a deal of teams traveling to fly when you say Wrexham to Manchester is a simple task, no doubt as it's only just under and hour to get there.

Then when you say that time sort of factors derbies, its not really its the history each region has with each other and the clubs that were put together to make those regions.

It's not really feasible for the North Wales region to even consider playing their games at the Racecourse Stadium anyway. Yes it holds some 700 seats more than Parc Y Scarlets but that is here or there really. Two teams currently occupy the Racecourse Stadium in Wrexham FC and the Crusaders RL, so the North Wales region would have to look at playing there games somewhere else.

Its all well and good demanding a 5th region but when the finances are not there and when the squad strength would be worse than that of Arioni then its not feasible to even consider the RGC 1404 as a region, they have potential but I have serious doubt they could even compete with the likes of the Blues and Dragons for example.

I was meaning derby in the basic sense of two teams from the same union going head to head which is what I believe a derby in the ML to be considering it is made up of 4 unions. I am not suggesting that two teams from the same union is a derby just that in the ML it is. For instance Bayonne vs Toulon is in no way a derby nor is Clermont vs Racing Metro but Stade Français vs Racing Metro, Bayonne vs Biarritz are and Montpellier vs Perpignan are. Similar in England.

Do you have suggestions other than playing at Racecourse Road? It is important as I recall in 2008 the WRU stated that the development team in North Wales was being created with the intention of it being developed into Wales´ fifth side in the Magners League. The idea being that firstly it would help rugby in the north, secondly act as a catch pool for developing Northern Welsh players as well as thirdly providing a long term professional place to spread out the talent and thus prevent the problem that can be seen at Ospreys in the back three and at flyhalf. Fourthly, this would all combine to address the central objective of Wales being a better international rugby team.

So, really as I see it there are two options - the original one of Wrexham (Racecourse Road or another Northern venue) as the WRU do have an intention of over time having a northern team in the Magners League. I do not know when this would be but assume it is not too far away. Italy got it done in a matter of months. Surely the WRU are not waiting until after 2020?
 
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I was meaning derby in the basic sense of two teams from the same union going head to head which is what I believe a derby in the ML to be considering it is made up of 4 unions. I am not suggesting that two teams from the same union is a derby just that in the ML it is. For instance Bayonne vs Toulon is in no way a derby nor is Clermont vs Racing Metro but Stade Français vs Racing Metro, Bayonne vs Biarritz are and Montpellier vs Perpignan are. Similar in England.

Do you have suggestions other than playing at Racecourse Road? It is important as I recall in 2008 the WRU stated that the development team in North Wales was being created with the intention of it being developed into Wales´ fifth side in the Magners League. The idea being that firstly it would help rugby in the north, secondly act as a catch pool for developing Northern Welsh players as well as thirdly providing a long term professional place to spread out the talent and thus prevent the problem that can be seen at Ospreys in the back three and at flyhalf. Fourthly, this would all combine to address the central objective of Wales being a better international rugby team.

So, really as I see it there are two options - the original one of Wrexham (Racecourse Road or another Northern venue) as the WRU do have an intention of over time having a northern team in the Magners League. I do not know when this would be but assume it is not too far away. Italy got it done in a matter of months. Surely the WRU are not waiting until after 2020?

Well not unless the build a new stadium, the Racecourse Ground could simply not accommodate another side at present, the pitch would be ruined, there would be no rest period for it. There are no other stadiums up North, so they would have to look at developing one, maybe pick a club and say right we are going to develop the club and ground for the use of the RGC.

Another major problem in North Wales is the player pool, the top division up in North Wales is equivalent to Division Two East and West within the WRU with some teams only slightly better than this. Its often feared that if a North Wales team did play regularly down in South Wales it would get a battering. Llangefni RFC was the exception to this who managed to finish second in Division 3 West in 2006/07 and were refused promotion. I remember watching them down in Aberystwyth and must say they were not bad but would have struggled to compete higher up in the leagues. Simply its feared that the North teams would get a battering. Ive seen the division below the top tier in North Wales and quite frankly its a shambles.

Regarding players moving to play for the RGC, I highly doubt it, most of the players down South Wales would not fancy moving sticks and playing for the RGC, the distance and being away from the rugby heartland for some players would be a no go zone. Players want to stay down South as they feel they have a better chance of being spotted by a scout and that the standard / training / facilities are all better down South than up North.

The Italian Job was not done in a matter of months, planning for a good couple of years were undertaken, and it was in the best interest for all that the Italians joined the Magners League, exposing Italians to a better standard of rugby. I just don't think a 5th Welsh Region is viable at the mo, certainly not in the North as it is.
 
Just to build on traveling from north to south is a issue this weekend we've travelled from Rhyl (north) to Cwmbran (south) to play croesy in the youth welsh cup, took 5 to 6 hours (cant remember on exact timing and thats with a break of 30 mins) on the way down and 4 and a half back up done from 8am on sat getting back 1:30pm today.. as for the result we lost if interested 13-3 but they predicted to put 50 points on us due to the "gap" which tbh there is a gap even though I've said there isnt before there is, its not a huge one but there is one in terms of just how many tough games they play a year compared to up north.


As for RGC using the racecourse its a nogo, they currently use Erias park in Colwyn bay which is due for redevelopment in terms of more seating with coverd stands and upgraded training facilities suposidly down to the fact RGC are there but we'll see how that goes on..
 
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