What about the Currie Cup teams?

[Jaguares]

I have not idea about the Currie Cup. I only know the 5 traditional SR franchises (Sharks, Bulls, Stormers, Cheetahs, Lions), the Southern Kings and the Pumas (I heard about them several times and they have a Vocacom Cup team).

What I see is that SA has 3 powerfull teams: Bulls (Blue Bulls), Sharks (Natal) and Stormers (Western Province). I mean 3 teams with a lot of Springboks players, good crowds, good rugby schools, etc. The others 3: Cheetahs, Lions and the Kings don't have good crowds. They are like Western Force or Melbourne Rebels in Australia, small teams.

My point is, the other Currie Cup teams like: Cavaliers, Pumas, Falcons, Griquas, Leopards, Griffons are small teams like Cheetahs and Lions? If they play at SR will play with poor crowds too?

 

[TRF_heineken]

Okay, lets use this map to explain the massive difference between Super Rugby and Currie Cup teams to Conrad Smith and the others that might also not be clued up, or even bothered to read the posts about this topic that has been discussed at length.

The Super Rugby teams, are franchises, not clubs/unions

The Currie Cup teams are unions. Each Currie Cup team has it's own union, with a president and they are all affiliated with SARU.

The Super Rugby teams are a private entity like a company, that is owned by a Union/Unions.

Here is how the Super Rugby teams are compiled, use the map above as illustration:

Bulls
Blue Bulls
Leopards

Lions
Golden Lions
Falcons

Cheetahs
Free State Cheetahs
Griquas
Griffons

Sharks
Natal Sharks
Pumas

Southern Kings
Eastern Province Kings
Border Bulldogs
SWD Eagles

Stormers
Western Province
Boland Kavaliers

The franchise teams use the unions as their basis to compile a team for Super Rugby, and the other franchises can if they want to do deals with players from other unions not in their district. For Example, Vincent Koch. He was a contracted Pumas player, The Sharks didn't want him as they had Jannie Du Plessis/Thomas Du Toit/Beast/Lourens Adriaanse as their props. Then the Bulls invited him to their camp, and then they also didn't want him, and then the Stormers snapped him up. The Stormers gave him a Super Rugby contract, but he still played Currie Cup for the Pumas. Koch can however be bought/contracted by Western Province to play for their Currie Cup team as well as the Stormers.

The smaller unions won't get a Super Rugby team. They don't have the funds nor the facilities to become a franchise. The only team possibly with a chance are the Pumas and maybe the Griquas. But due to the political nature, it's highly unlikely that it will ever happen.

The only reason why the Kings got a Super Rugby team, was because of the lack of top-level rugby in the Eastern Cape Area (SWD Eagles, EP Kings & Border Bulldogs). As you will see on the map, it's basically the whole south-eastern part of the country. The main reason for the promotion was because of the amount of Ethnically Black players registered in those districts and to expose them to top-level rugby. Believe me when I say that we have schools in all the district that are equally as good as the big names you mentioned. Schools like Grey College PE (EP Kings), Outeniqua(SWD Eagles), Oakdale(SWD Eagles), Diamantveld(Griquas), HTS Middelburg(Pumas), Dr. EG Jansen(Falcons), Nelspruit(Pumas), Boland Landbou(Boland Cavaliers). Here's a link of the top 20 Schools in rugby in SA as at September 2015: http://www.rugby365.com/sa-schools/top-20/68415-schools-top-20-september-1

I hope this clears up any confusion.

 

[saulan]

Believe me when I say that we have schools in all the district that are equally as good as the big names you mentioned. Schools like Grey College PE (EP Kings), Outeniqua(SWD Eagles), Oakdale(SWD Eagles), Diamantveld(Griquas), HTS Middelburg(Pumas), Dr. EG Jansen(Falcons), Nelspruit(Pumas), Boland Landbou(Boland Cavaliers). Here's a link of the top 20 Schools in rugby in SA as at September 2015: http://www.rugby365.com/sa-schools/top-20/68415-schools-top-20-september-1

Just on the topic of schools, Bloemfontein has the biggest rugby school in the country, Grey Bloem. As Heineken has pointed out, there are quality teams in these regions. But the problem is that in those regions they are often the only good team. Grey PE is the only good rugby school in PE and travels around the country for their fixtures, same for Grey Bloem where it is not unusual for the U19 Cheetahs team to feature Grey Bloem second team players. The problem though is that these schools are all well known, so these players hardly ever stay in their district if they are good enough, because generally everyone wants to play Super Rugby and again generally the unions prefer to have their Super Rugby players in their Currie Cup squad (Faf de Klerk is a recent example of this).

 

[TRF_heineken]

Just on the topic of schools, Bloemfontein has the biggest rugby school in the country, Grey Bloem. As Heineken has pointed out, there are quality teams in these regions. But the problem is that in those regions they are often the only good team. Grey PE is the only good rugby school in PE and travels around the country for their fixtures, same for Grey Bloem where it is not unusual for the U19 Cheetahs team to feature Grey Bloem second team players. The problem though is that these schools are all well known, so these players hardly ever stay in their district if they are good enough, because generally everyone wants to play Super Rugby and again generally the unions prefer to have their Super Rugby players in their Currie Cup squad (Faf de Klerk is a recent example of this).

True.

And some of the big rugby schools like Grey Bloem and Grey PE and Affies don't participate in regional tournaments like they used to in the past, and nowadays only play Derbies against teams who want to play against them/will be a competition for them.

My Highschool for example, Hoërskool Pietersburg is part of the TUKS Super 16 Series, where some of those top 20 schools are also participating, and Affies used to be part of that series too, but because of the massive scores Affies used to score against the other teams, they decided to withdraw and find other schools that could be better competition for them.

 

[saulan]

True.

And some of the big rugby schools like Grey Bloem and Grey PE and Affies don't participate in regional tournaments like they used to in the past, and nowadays only play Derbies against teams who want to play against them/will be a competition for them.

My Highschool for example, Hoërskool Pietersburg is part of the TUKS Super 16 Series, where some of those top 20 schools are also participating, and Affies used to be part of that series too, but because of the massive scores Affies used to score against the other teams, they decided to withdraw and find other schools that could be better competition for them.

Yep, that sounds about right. My old school, Wynberg Boys, generally played against the boys school and the Paarl/Boland schools and then schools we used to play against in the past such as Bergvliet or Westerford our second or third team plays against.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Yep, that sounds about right. My old school, Wynberg Boys, generally played against the boys school and the Paarl/Boland schools and then schools we used to play against in the past such as Bergvliet or Westerford our second or third team plays against.

Yup. In Matric I was in the 2nd team and we used to play against Affies' 7th or 8th team, and they usually went on to beat us by at least 30 points...

 

[saulan]

This may not be the correct place for this, but @Jaguares I am actually interested in the breakdown in Argentina? I am assuming football takes precedence in Argentina, but are there areas around the country where there are good schools and some form of provincial teams, or is it all pretty focused around certain areas?

 

[Jaguares]

Ok. So it's similar to the NZ format. Every franchise has his own zone but can pick players from other zones.

The thing is, I still can't understand why the SR games where don't play the 3 giants (Bulls, Sharks, Stormers) the crowds are so poor. If the Cheetahs are 2 Currie Cup teams and the Lions are 3 Currie Cup teams. Why they can't get a sold-out? While South Africa has the hightest TV rating in Super Rugby

 

[saulan]

Ok. So it's similar to the NZ format. Every franchise has his own zone but can pick players from other zones.

The thing is, I still can't understand why the SR games where don't play the 3 giants (Bulls, Sharks, Stormers) the crowds are so poor. If the Cheetahs are 2 Currie Cup teams and the Lions are 3 Currie Cup teams. Why they can't get a sold-out? While South Africa has the hightest TV rating in Super Rugby

Look, it's not the cost, because our tickets are so cheap compared to matches in Aus and NZ. I think distance plays a large role. Bloemfontein and Kimberly are not close at all and the infrastructure to get there as a Griffon fan is not really there (you can drive and I think that is it). But I don't think the Lions has bad attendance. I currently live in Joburg though and I don't want to go to any Lions games because of the location of their stadium.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Technically Paarl Boishai, Parl Gymnasium and Paul Roos also fall into Boland. If the WPRU didn't have its thumb on its smaller cousin and if Boland itself wasn't a money bag for racist political-type "administrators" we'd conquer all!

JPP, Willie le Roux, Hougaard, Pollard, JdV, Burger, PSdT, Juandre Kruger, Frans Malherbe, Kitshoff, you name them, all Boland boys.

 

[Jaguares]

Look, it's not the cost, because our tickets are so cheap compared to matches in Aus and NZ. I think distance plays a large role. Bloemfontein and Kimberly are not close at all and the infrastructure to get there as a Griffon fan is not really there (you can drive and I think that is it). But I don't think the Lions has bad attendance. I currently live in Joburg though and I don't want to go to any Lions games because of the location of their stadium.

Is the Ellis Park in a dangerous neighbour? Ok, the distance are large. But you only have 7 or 8 SR games at home per year. I can't understand. And why the Cheetahs play in a HUGE stadiums if they don't big crowds. They should play in small stadiums like Western Force or Rebels in Australia or Highlanders in NZ.

 

[saulan]

Is the Ellis Park in a dangerous neighbour? Ok, the distance are large. But you only have 7 or 8 SR games at home per year. I can't understand. And why the Cheetahs play in a HUGE stadiums if they don't big crowds. They should play in small stadiums like Western Force or Rebels in Australia or Highlanders in NZ.

It's more that they play in those stadiums because they need something to happen in them. The Free State Stadium was built for the 1995 World Cup and used for the 2010 FIFA World Cup. The other team to use it is a football team called Bloemfontein Celtic and I think it is even more empty for those matches. The Cheetahs have capacity for about 45000 but their average attendance is 17,000. I don't know who owns the stadium though and it may be the case that there is incentive from the municipality to get them to play there. I also don't know if they have a smaller stadium in town.

Ellis Park is surrounded by bad areas. A Lions fan would be able to provide you more information on this. But I don't think there are many parking facilities near the stadium and you definitely don't want to be caught in that area at night. The best bet would be to uber directly to the stadium and then uber out. There is a train station a km away but I don't think the walk is the safest. Again, a Lions fan can provide better information than me.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Ok. So it's similar to the NZ format. Every franchise has his own zone but can pick players from other zones.

The thing is, I still can't understand why the SR games where don't play the 3 giants (Bulls, Sharks, Stormers) the crowds are so poor. If the Cheetahs are 2 Currie Cup teams and the Lions are 3 Currie Cup teams. Why they can't get a sold-out? While South Africa has the hightest TV rating in Super Rugby

It's probably because it's economically difficult to attend each match, and Bloemfontein for example is about 500km at least away from the other cities with a franchise team.

Look, it's not the cost, because our tickets are so cheap compared to matches in Aus and NZ. I think distance plays a large role. Bloemfontein and Kimberly are not close at all and the infrastructure to get there as a Griffon fan is not really there (you can drive and I think that is it). But I don't think the Lions has bad attendance. I currently live in Joburg though and I don't want to go to any Lions games because of the location of their stadium.

Our lack of a public transport system certainly makes it very difficult.

Is the Ellis Park in a dangerous neighbour? Ok, the distance are large. But you only have 7 or 8 SR games at home per year. I can't understand. And why the Cheetahs play in a HUGE stadiums if they don't big crowds. They should play in small stadiums like Western Force or Rebels in Australia or Highlanders in NZ.

Where else should the Cheetahs play? There is only one rugby stadium in Bloemfontein, unless they play at a high school or university. The stadium is sponsored so it doesn't matter about the size of the stadium. The franchise would rather have a big stadium and not fill it, rather than have a small stadium and turn away fans...

The crowds will get bigger as the teams perform, that's just how it works in SA. if the team plays poorly, the fans won't come to the matches.

 

[Jaguares]

It's more that they play in those stadiums because they need something to happen in them. The Free State Stadium was built for the 1995 World Cup and used for the 2010 FIFA World Cup. The other team to use it is a football team called Bloemfontein Celtic and I think it is even more empty for those matches. The Cheetahs have capacity for about 45000 but their average attendance is 17,000. I don't know who owns the stadium though and it may be the case that there is incentive from the municipality to get them to play there. I also don't know if they have a smaller stadium in town.

Ellis Park is surrounded by bad areas. A Lions fan would be able to provide you more information on this. But I don't think there are many parking facilities near the stadium and you definitely don't want to be caught in that area at night. The best bet would be to uber directly to the stadium and then uber out. There is a train station a km away but I don't think the walk is the safest. Again, a Lions fan can provide better information than me.

So is the Ellis Park like the Soccer stadium in Soweto? A dangerous zone where whites must to be carefull? SA is similar as Latin America, there are zones when you must to be so carefull.

The average attendance of Cheetahs games is 17k? Are u serious? I never see 17k at Free State Stadium

 

[saulan]

So is the Ellis Park like the Soccer stadium in Soweto? A dangerous zone where whites must to be carefull? SA is similar as Latin America, there are zones when you must to be so carefull.

The average attendance of Cheetahs games is 17k? Are u serious? I never see 17k at Free State Stadium

No, Ellis Park is essentially in Joburg the city, and the Stadium is in the dodgy part of town. Its a place where everyone needs to be careful. Do a google image search for Hillbrow. It's one of the areas you need to walk through to get to the stadium from the station. This is its wiki description: "Hillbrow is an inner city residential neighbourhood of Johannesburg, Gauteng Province, South Africa. It is known for its high levels of population density, unemployment, poverty and crime"

I am serious. Its difficult to tell how many people are at those games because the stadium is so big. In general the games between the local teams and more poorly attended against foreign teams. Here is a site which has the stats from last year:
http://rugby.statbunker.com/competitions/HomeAttendance?comp_id=477

 

[TRF_heineken]

No, Ellis Park is essentially in Joburg the city, and the Stadium is in the dodgy part of town. Its a place where everyone needs to be careful. Do a google image search for Hillbrow. It's one of the areas you need to walk through to get to the stadium from the station. This is its wiki description: "Hillbrow is an inner city residential neighbourhood of Johannesburg, Gauteng Province, South Africa. It is known for its high levels of population density, unemployment, poverty and crime"

I am serious. Its difficult to tell how many people are at those games because the stadium is so big. In general the games between the local teams and more poorly attended against foreign teams. Here is a site which has the stats from last year:
http://rugby.statbunker.com/competitions/HomeAttendance?comp_id=477

Hillbrow, also known as little Lagos...