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Jer1cho
Guest
Sigh... My point is, if you take A SINGLE PERSON'S ROLE, then a good goal kicker is more important than anyone else. You can't tell me that 'the entire forward pack' or 'loose-trio' bla bla bla. The debate is SINGLE PLAYER.
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Nickdnz
Guest
Oh, I didn't understand what you were saying, but the big bold letters made it so much clearer, thanks...
What I was saying, is that kicking for goal, is no more of a valuable aspect as any one members roll. A number 7 will be a prime fetcher, so it will be just as likely for a team to lose without a fetcher as a team will get less ball, as it would for a team to lose without a goal kicker. I'm not talking about the forward pack or loose trio on the whole, I'm saying every player plays the same importance, so your big bold point remains IRRELEVANT.
What I was saying, is that kicking for goal, is no more of a valuable aspect as any one members roll. A number 7 will be a prime fetcher, so it will be just as likely for a team to lose without a fetcher as a team will get less ball, as it would for a team to lose without a goal kicker. I'm not talking about the forward pack or loose trio on the whole, I'm saying every player plays the same importance, so your big bold point remains IRRELEVANT.
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Jer1cho
Guest
No point in arguing with you. You know everything. A fat prop can win games just as easily as the best goal-kicker in the world.
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ChiefsFan
Guest
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Nickdnz
Guest
Haha, saw that coming Cheifs Fan. And that's correct Jer1cho, if you get nailed every scrum, dosn't matter how good your goal kicker is, your still most likely going to loose.
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Jer1cho
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nickdnz @ Feb 4 2010, 12:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Refer to SA vs New Zealand in 2004.... Where we were better in ever department, but lost to a boot....
Or, to the second test between the Lions and SA last year... You think Ruan Pienaar would have landed that kick that Morne Steyn kicked? Which won us the series?
Sorry, but i think if you have to make a call on a single player who is 0.000000000000000000001% more important than the rest, it's your goal kicker.
What if both teams score 2 tries each, are equally dominant, but the end score-line is 14-12 thanks to a converted kick? Stop denying the obvious.
Refer to SA vs New Zealand in 2004.... Where we were better in ever department, but lost to a boot....
Or, to the second test between the Lions and SA last year... You think Ruan Pienaar would have landed that kick that Morne Steyn kicked? Which won us the series?
Sorry, but i think if you have to make a call on a single player who is 0.000000000000000000001% more important than the rest, it's your goal kicker.
What if both teams score 2 tries each, are equally dominant, but the end score-line is 14-12 thanks to a converted kick? Stop denying the obvious.
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Nickdnz
Guest
But hold on Jer1cho, I'm not saying that a good goal kicker can't make a difference. In fact I'm not even saying it's not extremley important to have a good goal kicker, it's just no more important then to have a good scrummager, a good line out jumper, a good ball winner etc etc. I'd take Carter in my team over Donald any day. Just like I'd take Richard Hill over Jerome Kaino or Carl Hayman over Tialata etc etc. The fact that the AB forwards (each contributing differently) did enough in 2004 to give their kicker the oppertunities he needed, shows why we were clearly the better team on the day...
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Jer1cho
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nickdnz @ Feb 5 2010, 02:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Yes it is.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nickdnz @ Feb 5 2010, 02:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Bullshit.
Yes it is.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nickdnz @ Feb 5 2010, 02:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Bullshit.
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Bullitt
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jer1cho @ Feb 5 2010, 07:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Yes it is.[/b][/quote]
Want to elaborate?
You appear to have got the question mixed up. What was originally asked is "What are the most significant positions in rugby", as in which individuals can be separated from the rest of the team and be deemed indispensable.
First of all, a kicker is a role, not a position. As (for that matter) are scrummager, Jumper, Ball winner, captain etc.
Excluding the 95 World Cup when the entire gameplan was "Give it to Jonah", there has never EVER been an instance when a single player has won a game on his own. It's always been because of the team around him has elevated his ability to play.
I may sarcastically joke about how Ben Cohen single handedly beat the All Blacks in 2002 purely because he was so immense that day, but I know it was a team effort. In similar vein, the idiots-who-know-nothing often harp on how Wilkinson single handedly won the 2003 world cup because they're too stupid to understand that in getting that drop goal, Matt Dawson had to make a 20m linebreak, Neil Back had to secure the ruck, Martin Johnson had to present the platform, Jason Leonard had to punch someone in the nose while both Richard Hill & LBND had to make real nuances of themselves. The fact Wilkinson had these other elements are what allowed him to hit the DG (on the 5th time of asking). Had any one of them not been there, in that situation and at that time, it wouldn't have worked, simple as that.
The Kickers role is indeed important, he scores the points so needs to be good. It's not just one man however and in the modern game, there's often 1/3 of the starting XV is capable of nailing a penalty.
Yes it is.[/b][/quote]
Want to elaborate?
You appear to have got the question mixed up. What was originally asked is "What are the most significant positions in rugby", as in which individuals can be separated from the rest of the team and be deemed indispensable.
First of all, a kicker is a role, not a position. As (for that matter) are scrummager, Jumper, Ball winner, captain etc.
Excluding the 95 World Cup when the entire gameplan was "Give it to Jonah", there has never EVER been an instance when a single player has won a game on his own. It's always been because of the team around him has elevated his ability to play.
I may sarcastically joke about how Ben Cohen single handedly beat the All Blacks in 2002 purely because he was so immense that day, but I know it was a team effort. In similar vein, the idiots-who-know-nothing often harp on how Wilkinson single handedly won the 2003 world cup because they're too stupid to understand that in getting that drop goal, Matt Dawson had to make a 20m linebreak, Neil Back had to secure the ruck, Martin Johnson had to present the platform, Jason Leonard had to punch someone in the nose while both Richard Hill & LBND had to make real nuances of themselves. The fact Wilkinson had these other elements are what allowed him to hit the DG (on the 5th time of asking). Had any one of them not been there, in that situation and at that time, it wouldn't have worked, simple as that.
The Kickers role is indeed important, he scores the points so needs to be good. It's not just one man however and in the modern game, there's often 1/3 of the starting XV is capable of nailing a penalty.
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Jer1cho
Guest
Right...
Firstly, i know what the question was, but i thought it would be worth mentioning the goal-kicker anyway. I never referred to any position in general. But i do think that the role of your kicker is 0.00000000000000000000000001% more important than anyone els's.
Then, imagine you have a squad of 14 normal players, then you need to add ONE player to that team, in order to take on someone els's team of the same players (who were cloned), who also happen to have ONE star.
What kind of player would you choose as your star?
I would take the World's best goal-kicker.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullitt @ Feb 5 2010, 01:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
See, now this is my point. At the end of the day, all of the entire teams efforts fell on one person, who had to win the game for them. The same thing happened in the Lions series. O' Gara brain farted... Not because of anybody on our team, but rather because he had a moment of madness. Then, all it took was a kick to break every heart in the British Isles... This is why i think the goal-kicker is a little more important than anyone else... Still brings me back to my point about if both teams are 100% equal in every aspect of the game, and both teams scored 2 tries with the score at 14-12 with a conversion to come in the final second... Then he misses...
Firstly, i know what the question was, but i thought it would be worth mentioning the goal-kicker anyway. I never referred to any position in general. But i do think that the role of your kicker is 0.00000000000000000000000001% more important than anyone els's.
Then, imagine you have a squad of 14 normal players, then you need to add ONE player to that team, in order to take on someone els's team of the same players (who were cloned), who also happen to have ONE star.
What kind of player would you choose as your star?
I would take the World's best goal-kicker.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullitt @ Feb 5 2010, 01:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
See, now this is my point. At the end of the day, all of the entire teams efforts fell on one person, who had to win the game for them. The same thing happened in the Lions series. O' Gara brain farted... Not because of anybody on our team, but rather because he had a moment of madness. Then, all it took was a kick to break every heart in the British Isles... This is why i think the goal-kicker is a little more important than anyone else... Still brings me back to my point about if both teams are 100% equal in every aspect of the game, and both teams scored 2 tries with the score at 14-12 with a conversion to come in the final second... Then he misses...
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Bullitt
Guest
I have Jonah Lomu as 5 is worth more then 3! 
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Jer1cho
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullitt @ Feb 5 2010, 01:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<_<
I have Jonah Lomu as 5 is worth more then 3!
<_<
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Bullitt
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jer1cho @ Feb 5 2010, 11:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
See, now this is my point. At the end of the day, all of the entire teams efforts fell on one person, who had to win the game for them. The same thing happened in the Lions series. O' Gara brain farted... Not because of anybody on our team, but rather because he had a moment of madness. Then, all it took was a kick to break every heart in the British Isles... This is why i think the goal-kicker is a little more important than anyone else... Still brings me back to my point about if both teams are 100% equal in every aspect of the game, and both teams scored 2 tries with the score at 14-12 with a conversion to come in the final second... Then he misses...
[/b][/quote]
Don't forget the best kickers still miss. How many penalties did Wilkinson miss in the 2003 final? There were a few. He missed the conversion (which was needlessly difficult as he passed to the wrong man before the try) and he bummed umpteen different DG attempts. What saved the day was the rest of the team rallying to get him into position to have another chance.
See, now this is my point. At the end of the day, all of the entire teams efforts fell on one person, who had to win the game for them. The same thing happened in the Lions series. O' Gara brain farted... Not because of anybody on our team, but rather because he had a moment of madness. Then, all it took was a kick to break every heart in the British Isles... This is why i think the goal-kicker is a little more important than anyone else... Still brings me back to my point about if both teams are 100% equal in every aspect of the game, and both teams scored 2 tries with the score at 14-12 with a conversion to come in the final second... Then he misses...
[/b][/quote]
Don't forget the best kickers still miss. How many penalties did Wilkinson miss in the 2003 final? There were a few. He missed the conversion (which was needlessly difficult as he passed to the wrong man before the try) and he bummed umpteen different DG attempts. What saved the day was the rest of the team rallying to get him into position to have another chance.
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Jer1cho
Guest
Gah. Fine. I give up. Ignore all my posts.
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Nickdnz
Guest
All right, I'll give you this Jer1cho. A player who can kick the ball well, is better then the same player, who can't kick the ball well.
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DuncTheDoodle
Guest
Not having a good goal kicker would be a bigger loss than not having, say, a good creative centre or a scrum-half who could put a decent speed on the ball, and is of around the same responsiblty of the entire pack put together if the Scrum doesn't function.
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Bullitt
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DuncTheDoodle @ Feb 5 2010, 07:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
As an England fan who's seen Harry Ellis' entire career, I can assure you that having a crap scrum half is a massive handicap.
As an England fan who's seen Harry Ellis' entire career, I can assure you that having a crap scrum half is a massive handicap.
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OSU Blue
Guest
Looking at it from the point of view of what hurts MY team the most, rather than what hurts professional teams, the scrum-half, followed by fly-half, are the worst players to lose. An injured open forward or fullback can also really do damage to us, but that's pretty much because we have some key players in those positions.
P.S. The words 'than' and 'then' have completely different meanings. Please learn them. Also, it is spelled 'opportunity.' Thank you. If English is not your first language, you are partially excused.... Partially.
P.S. The words 'than' and 'then' have completely different meanings. Please learn them. Also, it is spelled 'opportunity.' Thank you. If English is not your first language, you are partially excused.... Partially.
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lucky_number_7
Guest
without the ball you cant score so a fetcher or a good scrummaging prop are essential...look for exampleat carl hayman his scrummaging has won matches for newcastle
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Nickdnz
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OSU Blue @ Feb 13 2010, 06:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
2. Meh, I'd make more of a response to the second part of your input however I realised your probably a c***.
1. Then I'm guessing you have no idea how to play as a forward, or are pretty poor at it. Props win scrums which gives half backs and fly halves a solid platform of ball. One bad prop leads them to crumble and limits what the fly half and half back can do. Same with every position in the forwards will offer ball something which is needed to win a game, and therefore no position can be overlooked or ridden off as less important.
2. Meh, I'd make more of a response to the second part of your input however I realised your probably a c***.
